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Looking to get a pistol braced gun for HD. Will be my main HD and training gun. I am in the get a good gun and learn how to use it camp where having it and knowing how to use it will at the end of that day will be much more important than the specific details such as caliber etc they all shoot projectiles as a high velocity. also a buy once cry once guy. Option 1: B&T APC9 9mm pistol with Omega 9k. I love the Swiss thing have plenty of 147gr 9mm JHP, lying around this thing will shoot like a paintball gun Option 2: PWS MK111 mod 2m pistol with Delta P or surefire mini can. I like their piston system with gas regulator/long strike for a short barrel suppressed 5.56. Slightly bigger, slightly more recoil, probably quite a bit louder relative to option 1. 5.56 probably a better all around caliber weapon for 0-200 yards. This is one of the best all around set up you can get. Option 3: convince me to look at 300bo. Get over cost and availability. Go subs which are closer to the benefits of 9mm (quite), go supers for distance if necessary (closer to 5.56). | ||
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| Member |
I have a braced PSA 10.5 556 for my HD gun. Its a basic but nice set up. Have you considered a bullpup by chance? Its the same size as a braced pistol but IMO is better as you have more stability. Theres also no legal flip flop on where you can take it or if it will be ruled out of reasonable use (ie the shouldering thing). Up close I think its a wash but at distance I'd feel better with something with a full stock. If it is a true HD gun a braced pistol benefit is its cheap so if I lose it to the evidence room then I'm not losing a ton of cash. Just my thoughts. | |||
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| Member |
Are there any bull pups that suppress well? | |||
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| Freethinker |
Comments on the 300 Blackout cartridge. Ballistic effectiveness when fired from short barrels is what convinced me of its superiority in a pistol or SBR. Some personally measured data: Speer 223 Remington 64 grain Gold Dot 16" barrel - 1090 ft-lb 11.5" bbl - 893 ft-lb 7.5" bbl - 572 ft- lb (the 357 SIG can do almost that well from ~ 4 inches) Hornady 300 Blackout 110 grain V-MAX 9" - 1169 ft-lb Not only does the Blackout produce similar energies from pistol barrels as the 223 does from carbines, but the bullets are larger and heavier (if one thinks that is important). I believe there is literally no sense in using subsonic 300 BLK loads for any serious purposes except for taking out sentries or guard dogs during black ops in and out missions. Although there are limited exceptions and the situation may improve in the future, the subsonic loads I’ve investigated produce significantly less power and typically do not expand. If we’re going to go with a load like that, then just stick with a pistol cartridge and be done with it. If I had to use subsonic ammunition in a 300 BLK pistol, it would be the Hornady 190 grain Sub-X. Another issue with the 223 out of short barrels is its ferocious muzzle blast and flash. I knew one officer with an SBR equipped with fixed suppressor and the muzzle flash alone was incredible to behold in low light situations—and on top of the significant loss of ballistic effectiveness. My 300 Blackout pistol is the SIG MCX. If I wanted maximum precision with the gun I’d use a sight more suited for longer ranges. With the Aimpoint the Hornady 110 V-MAX, though, it’s about a 3 MOA gun, and certainly precise enough for big threats at 200 yards. The primary ballistic disadvantage of the 300 Blackout is its long range trajectory, but to 200 yards it’s hardly the “rainbow” that some suggest. At 100 yards with a 50 yard zero under standard atmospheric conditions the bullet rises about 0.9 inch above the LOS, and drops to 5.2" below at 200 yards. I haven’t calculated the trajectories of 223 loads from short barrels, but they can’t be much better than that. My only heartburn with the 300 BLK and the intended purpose of the MCX is that most 223/5.56 magazines are not ideally suited for the cartridge. I’ve experienced feeding problems (not chambering, that’s what the bolt does) with some mags, and they often do not hold the full load they’re rated for with 223 ammunition. ► 6.4/93.6 “Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” — Plato | |||
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| Member |
Thanks for writing that. After reading some more on 300BO most experts agree subsonic rounds are not really ideal/appropriate for self defense purposes. I think 11.5 with mini suppressor in 5.56 might still be my preference. Understanding the suppressors goal is not make it whisper quite or even 100% hearing safe it is just meant to allow me shoot Indoors without ear pro IF necessary with out blasting my face off. Take off the edge per say. | |||
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| Member |
^^^ A .300BLK even using supers is still going to suppress way better than a 5.56 out of a short barrel and have better ballistics to boot. My HD gun is a 5.56 SBR so I'm not biased towards the .300, but in your position I'd either commit to the small/quiet/low recoil side of things with the B&T 9mm or the .300BLK to get the superior terminal effectiveness out of a short barrel. “People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik Be harder to kill: https://preparefit.ck.page | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
In the end your measuring with a micrometer. Any of the 3 will do, with the actual centerfire rifle cartridges being more effective than 9MM. Personally I use 5.56 because I don’t want another caliber, but I have a 9MM Scorpion pistol as well. 300BLK is great but the potential increase in performance is offset by the extra money / logistics of another caliber and short 30cal suppressor. | |||
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| Leatherneck |
I am sure you know this...but just in case (or for anyone else who may be reading this), MagPul makes a 300 BLK magazine. https://www.magpul.com/product...300-b-gen-m3-300-blk “Everybody wants a Sig in the sheets but a Glock on the streets.” -bionic218 04-02-2014 | |||
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| Member |
I got an x95 tavor just for this purpose. I can run it just as fast as my ar if not faster and it’s very short and compact with the ballistics of a full length barrel. I also thought about going the cheaper route and putting together an AR pistol with brace but at the time I didn’t want to mess with the whole is it legal to shoulder nonsense, since that kept changing.. Only thing about the short barrel ar is that you will need to make sure you have some really good SD ammo for it since you’re losing so much velocity, and that stuff isn’t cheap | |||
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| Freethinker |
Yes, thanks, I am aware of that and have a few. As I understand it, at least one or two other companies do as well. Because of some goofy laws around the country, not everyone can purchase them, however. The Magpul 10 round 5.56 mag also works okay. On the other hand, some of the many mags I have stockpiled, such as the Magpul 20-round version, do not work with 300 Blackout rounds. ► 6.4/93.6 “Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” — Plato | |||
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| Member |
Yeah....I don’t think I can do option 3. I want simple and easy. Option 1: APC9, handy, light, quite (147gr), one ammo supply for all needs Option 2: PWS mk111, about as efficient as it gets. Self defense outside my walls, coyote or other small game problem solver, higher ballistic effect etc.. Either way when considering accessories, optics, suppressor, ammo, training class you are talking 4-5k for a serious investment. | |||
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| Member |
Uncertain why #3 isn't simple and easy: - just pick a different upper from PWS. - get a suppressor for a .308 bore instead of a .224 bore. That bigger bore will also work for .224 uppers, too. - use the same mags as .223 Remy for supersonic loads with bullets in the 110-125 grain ballpark. If you're looking at 223 Remy, you've already eliminated subsonic ammo.
For 12-ish-inch barrels, 300blk produces an additional 200 foot pounds of kinetic energy over a 223 load. Flight ballistics inside 200 yards make no difference to 223 vs 300 loads. Small and medium game will be better handled with a comparable 300blk load. The only reasonable advantage 223 has in you SBR-type application is cheaper training ammo costs. Assuming you don't reload, it isn't hard to find quality FMJ 223 at $.30 per round. Comparable 300blk ammo will be around $.50 per round. | |||
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Telecom Ronin |
Personally I would go 300blk, in fact I will be building one soon. One if my reasons is my only suppressor (762SDN) is not rated in 556 with a 8.5" barrel but it is in 300 blk. My current HD is an 11.5" sbr but it's a bit heavy for my wife. And with the suppressor it's basically an M4 in size. There are a few 300blk subs that are reliable expanders, once I build it I may go totally sub....they are really quiet. And for a max 30' engagement distance I am ok with 45ACP like energy. | |||
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| Member |
I absolutely agree on 556 muzzle flash out of a short barrel. I have a blast forwarder on mine and its still quite loud and bright. I've heard good things about the Keltec RDB and Tavor suppressing well. I have no direct experience with either. I like 556 inside my house as there are rounds that have been shown to break up well in drywall after punching as little as 1-2 panels. I'm unaware of something similar in 300 blk 12ga or pistol rounds. Not trying to start a debate on it and if theres new info I'm all ears. I have both calibers and like both calibers but in my house and for the sake of folks in my neighborhood I run 556. | |||
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