So to make a very very long story a bit shorter, I wanted to run my RPR in a PRS match and here is where the problem occurred. It is very large 24.2lbs and 59” in length. In all fairness that is with suppressor but my intention was to run one.
So here is where the story actually begins I wanna build a rifle. After a lot of research and calibers, drop, energy and such based upon barrel length. I can achieve what I want with a 17” barreled 6.5 creedmoor.
Remington 700 receiver
- most common and I can get one from a Brownells for under $300
Manners T5A stock
- I just like it and you all recommended it.
Barrels I priced out a PAC-NOR, 1.25OD, straight profile which I now realize is “big”
- Oversized from Brownells $40
- decent price and good quality
On the receiver is it worth spending more for the Defiance or Deviant Tactical?
Is there another barrel maker you would reccomend? Or is pacnor good quality?
Should I have a local gun maker build me a rifle?This message has been edited. Last edited by: GroundedCLK,
I would avoid a Rem 700. The Defiance Deviant is an outstanding action. Well worth the extra money. There are other less expensive custom actions available. I have no experience with Pac Nor but 1.25 no taper is a truck axle. I run a light varmint profile or medium palma. Spend the money and you'll be glad you did.
Holy hippopotamus, Batman. My match rifle weighs 16.5# and is 54" long, including a 9" can. That's with a McMillan stock, a 26" heavy contour barrel, bipod, and 5-25x NF scope. Did you duct tape some lead weights to that thing to make it 24 pounds?
17" is a really short barrel for a 6.5. You should really consider at least 22" in order to gain the flight ballistics of the round. There's no need for a straight profile (1.25" at the tip) barrel. My barrel tapers to .93" at 26" -- Bartlein's M24 contour makes this a heavy barrel. I suspect many shooters have tapers which end in the .85" to .90" range.
The only way I would consider a Remy 700 action is if it was trued by a really good 'smith. But then you're near the cost of the new custom actions, and the Remy likely still won't be quite as accurate. Take a look at Alpine's recent post on the long distance shooting thread. Alpine saw some of the new actions at SHOT show and the introductory prices are good.
I have two Defiance actions. They work for me and I'm sold on them. And yes, they are expensive. Accuracy has been stunning with factory ammo.
There are a number of quality barrel makers out there. Bartlein, Krieger, Hawk Hill, Proof Research, Hart, Brux, Broughton come to mind. Others should be able to give you more options.
My F-TR match rifle is just under 18 pounds (with bipod and rain gear) and at 54 inches in length, with a heavy Palma contour 34 inch barrel. The stock is a laminated PR&T Lowboy with full adjustments.
The 1.25 inch contour is a pig and not needed for this cartridge, but do lengthen the barrel. 17 inches is woefully inadequate for a 6.5CM.
EDIT: I just checked the Ruger site. the RPR in 6.5 is a46.75 inches long and 10.7 pounds. A scope will add another couple of pounds. What else do you have that doubles the weight of the scoped rifle?
I know nothing of suppressors, do they weight 12 pounds?
I shoot a 6.5CM built by APA on a Defiance action.
The barrel is a 20" Brux #4 sporter contour barrel. The stock is an ultralight carbon fiber stock from a now-out-of-business maker. The scope is a March 3-24x42 (24 ounces, I think?). Unloaded, it weighs just under 9 pounds.
Loaded and with a Thunderbeast 30P-1 suppressor it's still under 10 pounds. Add an Atlas bipod to that and it's still under 11.
Accuracy is pretty good with factory Hornady ammo.
At 100 yards. NikonUser will object to the groups being 1/2" low.
At 300 yards.
If I recall correctly, I get 2650 fps out of the 140 AMAX load and 2850 out of the 120 AMAX load.
Anyway, long story short, you can get very good performance out of a relatively light, handy (at least by precision rifle standards) rifle.
The suppressors designed for precision bolt gun use (as opposed to those designed for high volume-of-fire on semiauto or fully automatic rifles, which are heavier) are usually less than a pound.
They are pretty long though - usually something like 8-9 inches.This message has been edited. Last edited by: maladat,
Rifle with bipod adapter, suppressor adaptor and Sig 762 suppressor is 12.4 pounds.
Vortex Razor HD 36 oz
Sphur Mount 24 oz
Atlas Bipod 17 oz
Magpul PRS w/ tube 29 oz
Total before loaded magazine is: 106 oz
With rifle before magazine is 19lbs about
I think my math is right, then add mag with 10 rounds of 175gr.
Suggest to shoot a few PRS matches with what you have. Most likely you'll change everything for your build except maybe the caliber.
Some thoughts about MV, with regards to elevation and windage ballistics:
The top steel match shooters consume 2-3 barrels per year. I suspect more than a few of the shooters have sponsorship deals for replacement barrels, and/or may have the tools and skills to change their own barrels. So barrel changes are recurring regularly and without drama. These top guys do a lot to stay at the top -- tweaking ammo, evaluating equipment, and lots of practice. They have the ability to change to short barrels at any time, yet we don't see the shooters with short barrels. I see a lot of what looks like 22" to 26" barrels.
I also see guys pushing handloads to relatively hot levels. My factory 6.5 Creedmoor 140 ELD ammo clocks in at 2820 fps with a 26" barrel and suppressor. I hear 6.5 guys pushing their 140-ish grain loads from 2800 to 2850 fps, so I'm in the low-to-middle portion of MV.
It's true the ballistics models show only a windage click or two disadvantage for a slower load. So in theory, with reasonable-sized targets, the slower MV won't cause issues. In theory.
Diamond-shaped targets are pretty common in some matches. If your elevation is great and wind isn't too bad, they can be relatively forgiving targets -- as you're shooting at the widest part of the plate. But let's say your distance calculation is off a bit. Could that either your range finder or the match director's LRF was picking up a bush in front of the steel or the berm behind the steel. This occurs more often than one might think. So you think you're shooting at the widest part of the diamond, but you're not.
Let's say you have a 10" point-to-point diamond target. If your elevation is off by 2.5" (either high or low), you're now shooting at a triangular portion of a diamond that's only 5" wide. A click or two of windage disadvantage from a lower MV now makes that portion of the target harder to hit.
Or maybe you're shooting from an odd position -- one that's not prone on flat ground. We have local matches here that require us to sometimes shoot at a fairly high upward angle. It's really easy to "climb up on the stock", meaning that we put too much cheek weld pressure on the stock and/or get into a position where parallax is off a bit. Even the best shooters around here (sometimes even offgrid, too) can throw shots high in such instances. On diamond-shaped and even round targets, we just made our target smaller.
I only have 1 length of 6.5 barrel, but my 223 ARs are more varied. Five different uppers with lengths of 14.5", 16", 18", 20", and 24". All five have a truly best ammo, but the load that works consistently well among all of them is Federal GMM 69. MV varies from a low of 2530 in the 14.5" to 2815 fps in the 24". All uppers have accurate barrels and quality optics.
I generally shoot my ARs at 6" to 12" targets (diamonds, circles, squares) from distances of between 250 and 650 yards. I experience winds that are generally 5-15 mph, often switching quickly. Normal wind patterns are from somewhere SW to N, but winds from any quadrant can occur on any day. If I shoot for at least 4 hours, I normally see wind direction shifts of at least 120 to 150 degrees on any given day. On truly devilish days, 300 to 360 degrees of wind direction occurs.
MV differences of up to 285 fps mean a click or three of windage differences between uppers, IIRC. Given my 2-3 MOA sized targets (8-12 clicks), in theory there shouldn't be all that much difference in my ability to hit targets -- regardless of which upper I use. But I see my hit percentages noticeably increase as I shoot the longer barrels. My station-to-target distances are all verified within a yard or two, so that's not an issue. But I do shoot from various positions and I've been known to throw a shot high here and there, mainly due to excessive cheek weld pressure and/or relaxing my grip on the rear bag.
Let's also understand that in certain terrain, wind not only pushes bullets left and right, but up and down, too.
#$&*@! wind. Maybe someday I will learn to estimate it better.
I have to tell you guys that I really appreciate your knowledge and willingness to share.
So I think one of you subtly hinted towards using a... longer barrel. Well hint was received and I am looking at using a 22" barrel as Fritz mentioned.
I am going to hold off on building a rifle till I actually shoot a couple of these matches.
So I probably have a really stupid question, but any thoughts on using a
Christensen Arms MPR 22" in 6.5
If you are looking at the MPR 6.5CM for a caliber change, suggest re-barreling what you have.
FYI, my match rifle weighs 18lb w/o magazine, 26" barrel plus muzzle brake. I've had a three 28" barrels in the past. With a 28" Medium Palma or 26" Marksmans/Heavy Palma barrel contour my rifle balances nicely for unsupported shots. Balance point just slightly in front of the magwell. Longer barrels in general have a better recoil pulse, straight back pulse. Easier to watch impacts. Shorter barrels tend to hop, more difficult to watch impacts. A heavier rifle shooting off of a barricade/tripod.... will also hop less. Others around me have 26" barrels with 6-9" suppressors, they get along just fine.
Have a 31" 7MM Heavy Palma barrel blank at my gunsmith right now to be chambered in a 7SAUM for mostly prone ELR matches. Barrel will be finished at 30".
By the second sentence I thought I was going to see a Barrett in this thread
I have to be honest I went to the gun store yesterday and was looking at rifles, they had two that I was tempted on
The FIX by Q
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