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posted
Good life changes are coming my way. My firearm budget is increasing as well as my available time and access for training.

I really want to nail down my home defense plan.

I'm thinking about a 300blk SBR suppressed but have a couple questions:

1. Any pro's/con's you can think of for using a 300blk suppressed SBR as the primary home defense weapon?

2. If this was your primary home defense weapon for your family, what would you get? I'm currently thinking a BCM ~9" w/ EoTech. what say you?

Thanks!
 
Posts: 1063 | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The guy behind the guy
Picture of esdunbar
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My home defense gun is a 9" 300blk with a SiCo Omega suppressor and an Aimpoint T2. It it loaded with 220 grain subsonic rounds.

I love 300 blk subsonic for home defense because it basically turns it into a .45 with better penetration (because of the cross section...think pointier bullet). I don't necessarily want rifle ballistics when I'm shooting in my neighborhood. Plus it's very quiet to fire indoors.

Mine is a homebuilt gun. The upper was put together by ADCO.


E.S. Dunbar
________________________________
I'm confused...wait, maybe I'm not.
 
Posts: 6963 | Location: Toledo, Ohio | Registered: April 19, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Id go Aimpoint instead of Eotech because the dot can just be left always on, pick the rifle up and its there. My H1 batteries last about 3 years on my preferred setting of 9.

Personally Id do supersonics for HD, the difference in terminal performance is night/day and stopping the threat is foremost. It should still be hearing safe suppressed or close enough not to cause permanent damage.




“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik

The world's a dangerous place, we can help! http://portlandfirearmtraining.com/
 
Posts: 4378 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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Although I believe a handgun is the best close quarters defensive weapon under most circumstances, my second choice is a short-barreled rifle (or rifle-like handgun). Once we’ve made that decision, the question becomes which action and cartridge do we choose. An AR-based weapon is clearly the best option for countless reasons, and then it’s a matter of the cartridge. The 223/5.56 cartridge has been demonstrated in countless engagements to be a highly effective antipersonnel round, but in tight quarters from a short barrel it suffers from the disadvantages of loss of ballistic effectiveness and distracting, perhaps debilitating, muzzle blast.

Both of those problems are mitigated by choosing the 300 Blackout cartridge.

The 300 BLK allows us to use the AR platform with all of its benefits, but with much shorter barrels. With proper ammunition its muzzle energy from a 9 inch barrel is as great as typical 223/5.56 loads from 16 inches, and it accomplishes that with much less blast and noise.

The things I believe are common mistakes with 300 BLK SBRs and similar weapons are hanging a suppressor on the weapon, thereby giving up the advantages of a short barrel, and relying on subsonic loads. Every decision we make pertaining to self-defense involves compromises, but those are two we don’t have to make.

And as a point about terminal ballistics, many people have pointed out that heavy subsonic loads in 300 Blackout are generally poor performers. There are many videos showing gelatin tests of expanding bullets, and not so many of nonexpanding bullets like the various Sierra MatchKing or even heavy Hornady A-MAX bullets like the 208 grain version. In my tests of the latter, they don’t expand at subsonic velocities even in water. Additional wounding effects are enhanced if the bullet tumbles, but what little data I’ve found shows that although tumbling will occur in gelatin at some point, it’s usually only after very deep penetration. One test of the Remington 220 grain subsonic load showed the bullet penetrating to 16 inches or more before it stopped acting like an icepick. Reports of hunters who have tried subsonic loads on deer are consistent with the gel tests.

Will a low kinetic energy projectile that doesn’t expand still stop aggression most of the time? Sure, any bullet will stop aggression most of the time, even if it doesn’t hit the aggressor. But if I’m ever faced with the very unlikely need to stop an aggressor, I will want as much advantage on my side as possible under the circumstances, and deliberately using an inferior load when there are many better alternatives doesn’t give me the best advantage available.




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 39825 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of D4Heavy
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Sigfreund, how about some subsonic ammo that is designed to expand I.e. Hornady 190 sub x or Lehigh defense 194 grain?

Your thoughts on these?

Edit to add: the Omega 9k at ~5 inches and a 8” 300BO rifle make a pretty short combo at 12” oal
 
Posts: 279 | Registered: December 23, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
For real?
Picture of Chowser
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I built an SBR out of PSA parts for my HD rifle.
It's got an 8.5" barrel with a Sandman-K suppressor. I'm using Hornady 190gr sub-x. (well, the TAP version) in a 20 rnd mag. Backup 30rd mag is loaded with supersonics



Not minority enough!
 
Posts: 6188 | Location: Cleveland, OH | Registered: August 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My next project from the 10/22 and FM9 was to be a 10" 300BO. The two swedish mausers and Mak 90 put that on hold till later this year.

I plan on SBR'ing the 300 BO.

I have watched a few vids online using gelatin. It does not seem like the subs are getting reliable expansion. There was one vid where a guy was pulling or filing down the polymer tips on the Hornaday subs to get them to expand in the gelatin.

I don't know that there are many real scientific test done by 3rd parties to test 300 BO subs in the same manner you have 9mm/40/45/223 tests done. I haven't heard of any home defense shooting where 300BO subs were specifically called out as to what was used.

Right now my nightstand gun is my BNT GHM45. I will do some tests with the 300 BO when i get mine put together in a while, and see if it will replace the ghm45
 
Posts: 5434 | Location: Virginia | Registered: December 23, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by D4Heavy:
Sigfreund, how about some subsonic ammo that is designed to expand ...?


Personal opinion and philosophy only, but an expanding .30 caliber subsonic bullet in the ~200 grain range is still equivalent to a small caliber handgun projectile. It’s certainly better than a nonexpanding small caliber handgun projectile, but a larger caliber supersonic handgun projectile would be better still. Yes, an SBR or SBR-like pistol offers certain advantages over a traditional handgun, but great enough in a close quarters defensive situation to give up the ballistic effectiveness? Not in my opinion.

And I have not seen confirmation that the subsonic 300 Blackout rounds loaded with bullets that are touted as being reliable expanders really do expand reliably. Heck, that’s true of many highly-regarded bullets in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP, and those bullets have been under development for far, far longer. I once saw a 9mm Hornady Critical Defense bullet sail right through 16 inches of genuine calibrated gelatin and bounce off a wooden backstop without expanding.

It’s certainly conceivable that a subsonic 300 BLK load with suppressor might be the ticket for certain tasks. I have a T/C Contender barrel chambered for the cartridge that will accept my Thunder Beast suppressor, and I’ve zeroed it with the Hornady 190 grain Sub-X load. I’m therefore ready to go if DEVGRU or CAG calls me up and says that only my magnificent skills and unusual weaponry can save the nation. Otherwise, however, it was just an interesting test bed and now is a reminder that not everything turns out the way we anticipate (it’s a lot louder than I expected). If someone has the desire to experiment and can afford to do so, I’ll be the last to discourage him; I do that sort of thing all the time. Often, though, people are trying to make important decisions with what I consider inadequate information.




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 39825 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Very interesting feedback.

What platform would you all suggest for trustworthiness?

BCM
Sig MPX
KAC
Build your own
Someething else?
 
Posts: 1063 | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Can’t go wrong with BCM. No need to pay more for KAC (unless you really want to) and no need to roll the dice with a build or PSA. Not a dig on PSA, i have a lot of their stuff, not my HD rifle though.




“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik

The world's a dangerous place, we can help! http://portlandfirearmtraining.com/
 
Posts: 4378 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Mpx is 9mm

For same price any glock mag ar15 pcc. My foxtrot mike 9 works well, bnt ghm9 glock mag, bnt ghm45 mike works awesome.
 
Posts: 5434 | Location: Virginia | Registered: December 23, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by matai:
What platform would you all suggest for trustworthiness?

BCM
Sig MPX
KAC
Build your own

Just as with an AR-15 in 223, there are many worthy options for an AR-15 in 300 blk. A likely challenge may be tuning an upper so it cycles reliably from the least gassed (unsuppressed subsonic) to the most most gassed (suppressed supersonic). I own an 11" Wilson Combat upper, which shoots really quite well.

My Wilson shoots quality ammo quite accurately, although it took a bit of experimentation to find the most consistent results. It has cycled flawlessly subsonic/supersonic/suppressed/unsuppressed, except for the Sig 125 grain ammo that pops primers. It shows that subsonic ammo really has crappy accuracy at distances of 50 yards -- which is the minimum distance I evaluate accuracy. I now primarily shoot suppressed supersonic, with loads having 110-150 grain bullets. I really can't speak in detail for other brands of rifles or uppers.

As noted in early posts -- and many previous threads on this topic -- subsonic 300 blk is effectively pistol-caliber performance crammed into a carbine/SBR-sized platform. You must determine if this configuration meets your needs. Previous thread have also discussed subsonic ammo performance.

Google searches provide a few subsonic blk ammo tests in gelatin. The Hornady 190 Sub X expands a bit, but nothing to write home about. The Lehigh 194 has jacket petals that tend to peel back fairly well. Most heavy, subsonic bullets don't expand, tumble, or fragment worth a darn.

I suspect supersonic blk ammo has not yet reached its fullest potential. FMJ supersonic seems to ice-pick much like many long & heavy subsonic bullets. Hornady Vmax 110 expands really quickly at 308 Win velocities, but may be a decent option at 300 blk velocities. The Barnes lead-free bullets seem to bend/expand/tumble enough to be useful in hunting situations. Hornady 125 SST could be an option, as it offers a little slower expansion and deeper penetration than Vmax 110.
 
Posts: 6021 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Bone 4 Tuna
Picture of jjkroll32
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quote:
Originally posted by Strambo:
Can’t go wrong with BCM. No need to pay more for KAC (unless you really want to) and no need to roll the dice with a build or PSA. Not a dig on PSA, i have a lot of their stuff, not my HD rifle though.



Agreed.

Though, I wanted to and have jumped in both feet to the KAC party.


_________________________
An unarmed man can only flee from evil and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it. - Col Jeff Cooper

NRA Life Member

Long Live the Super Thirty-Eight
 
Posts: 10830 | Location: Mid-Michigan | Registered: October 02, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by DSgrouse:
Mpx is 9mm

For same price any glock mag ar15 pcc. My foxtrot mike 9 works well, bnt ghm9 glock mag, bnt ghm45 mike works awesome.


Sorry, meant MCX
 
Posts: 1063 | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Truth Seeker
Picture of StorminNormin
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I have a suppressed 9.5” Noveske 300blk I have as a go to gun. It probably isn’t going to be my first home defense gun to grab as that is a 12 gauge shotgun next to the bed or a pistol on nightstand. Good thing about a suppressed 300blk is you don’t have to worry about hurting your ears, but that is the least of your worries if you have an intruder in your home.




NRA Benefactor Life Member
 
Posts: 6743 | Location: The Lone Star State | Registered: July 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I do love the 300BLK, but 220 gr non expanding, subsonic bullets are over penetration issues waiting to happen. Light, fast supers would be my choice. But really, a pistol/light combo with the same or similar ammo used by local law enforcement just makes more sense. My can stays in the safe, not to be taken as evidence in the case of having to engage a threat. I pray such an event never occurs in my home. It would mean moving due to the lasting shock of blood and guts all over my brides home. I train a bit, but man, the headaches to follow a shoot suck big time.
 
Posts: 1172 | Location: Montana | Registered: October 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
For real?
Picture of Chowser
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Another reason to have more than one suppressor. Just like more than one gun.



Not minority enough!
 
Posts: 6188 | Location: Cleveland, OH | Registered: August 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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From my short amount of reading on 300BO for Georgia sized deer hunting. 9.5/10 people always ran supers for penetration & expansion.

Based on some of those guys poor experience using Subs on animals. Not sure I'd want to use Subs for HD. A 300BO is way quieter with supers than a .223 supers on a SBR.




Train how you intend to Fight

Remember - Training is not sparring. Sparring is not fighting. Fighting is not combat.
 
Posts: 7886 | Location: Alpharetta, GA | Registered: August 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by TRshootem:
My can stays in the safe, not to be taken as evidence in the case of having to engage a threat.

Suppressors can be replaced. Sure, it's a hassle that takes some time and money.

Hearing loss is permanent. Hearing loss can be mitigated somewhat by hearing aids, but the good ones cost a lot more than a suppressor and stamp. Based on personal experience with elder family members and friends who do have noticeable hearing issues, hearing loss is not a path anyone wants to go down.
 
Posts: 6021 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My HD setup has amplified hearing protection as the first step. I leave it mounted to the gun and grab it.
1. its a tactical advantage. 2. no reason to loose your hearing. 3. Suppressor length is a disadvantage.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 7770 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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