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Doin' what I can
with what I got
Picture of Rob Decker
posted
A buddy just tripped over this and sent it to me, knowing my fondness for Mossbergs and short weapons...

Raptor's Head Grip + 14" Mossberg = Non-NFA?



Does anybody have any experience or input with these?

How would I even go about converting, say, a Mossberg Cruiser to 14"? Just a new barrel after this grip widget or do I need a new mag tube and spring too?


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Posts: 4958 | Registered: May 11, 2004Report This Post
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I have the set up, but no more shotgun. I believe the overall length (with that long grip) is almost the same as an 18 inch with regular grip.

I now have a Black Aces shotgun.
 
Posts: 1087 | Location: Phila Area | Registered: February 12, 2006Report This Post
sick puppy
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They're being called PGO or "pistol-grip only" shotguns, and apparently are gaining popularity. how to make one, I'm not sure. My local gun shop wants to make a couple up and see how they sell, but he seems to think they're popular.


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Posts: 6509 | Location: Alpine, Ut | Registered: February 17, 2010Report This Post
Freethinker
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I didn’t want to display my ignorance, but I will: How is that not something covered by the NFA? Even if it’s an AOW (Any Other Weapon), isn’t that considered NFA? I realize the tax stamp is $5 (IIRC) rather than $200, or do I completely misunderstand the concept and definitions?




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 37143 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Report This Post
Doin' what I can
with what I got
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According to the article (advertisement?) because it was never intended to be fired from the shoulder and is just barely long enough overall not to fit into any other category, including AOW.

Eweiss, how did you like yours?


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Posts: 4958 | Registered: May 11, 2004Report This Post
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Picture of maladat
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
I didn’t want to display my ignorance, but I will: How is that not something covered by the NFA? Even if it’s an AOW (Any Other Weapon), isn’t that considered NFA? I realize the tax stamp is $5 (IIRC) rather than $200, or do I completely misunderstand the concept and definitions?


Following the link, according to the ATF, it isn't a shotgun since it isn't designed to be fired from the shoulder (so it isn't an SBS), and it isn't an AOW because it is longer than 26".

I don't think you could legally make one from an existing shotgun with buttstock (because then you'd be making a shotgun into an SBS or AOW, not sure which, not up on the shotgun side of NFA and don't want to look it up right now), it would have to come that way from the factory as the firearm's original configuration.
 
Posts: 3802 | Location: TX | Registered: January 24, 2011Report This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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Thanks for the explanation. I should have checked the link myself. I was (vaguely) aware that smoothbore handguns were illegal (or at least NFA), but the overall length thing didn’t occur to me.

Added: Okay, I did go to the link with its good explanation of all that.
Now, however, I ask: is it a handgun? “Shotgun” is defined as not a handgun, and since it’s not a shotgun, is it a handgun by default? I’m curious for academic purposes only if nothing else because of the laws about concealed weapons. In Colorado, a CHP allows concealing handguns only, not long guns.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 37143 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Report This Post
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Here is a weird question regarding regulations- if this gun had say a barrel with very shallow rifling ( such that it would not effect the performance of shot) would this now be a pistol?
Seeing as a Taurus judge with rifled barrel can chamber and shoot shotgun shells and is not considered a shotgun?
 
Posts: 2101 | Location: Finally free in AZ! | Registered: February 14, 2003Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
I didn’t want to display my ignorance, but I will: How is that not something covered by the NFA? Even if it’s an AOW (Any Other Weapon), isn’t that considered NFA? I realize the tax stamp is $5 (IIRC) rather than $200, or do I completely misunderstand the concept and definitions?


I have the same sort of question but I'm also embarrassed to ask. I want to get a serbu super shorty but don't really understand the AOW thing. They say it's a 5 dollar fee, do you still need a trust and all that?

It also seems like you can just pay the 5 dollar fee to the seller at the time of purchase but I could be wrong about that too.
 
Posts: 4262 | Location: Alaska | Registered: June 12, 2010Report This Post
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by captain127:
Here is a weird question regarding regulations- if this gun had say a barrel with very shallow rifling ( such that it would not effect the performance of shot) would this now be a pistol?
Seeing as a Taurus judge with rifled barrel can chamber and shoot shotgun shells and is not considered a shotgun?


I’m hardly an authority, but some thoughts.

ATF regulations, etc., frequently mention that in order for a “concealable” gun to not be an Any Other Weapon (AOW), it must have a “rifled bore.” I cannot find an ATF definition of rifled bore, but in dictionary definitions, the NRA Firearms Source Book, and certainly in common usage, rifling is described as spiral grooves or other formations that impart rotary motion to the projectile. Forming grooves that were parallel to the bore or grooves that were so shallow or otherwise formed that they did not impart that rotary motion would probably not meet the ATF’s interpretation of a rifled bore.

Guns like the Taurus “Judge” can indeed fire shotshells, just like it’s possible to fire 22 Long Rifle shotshells in handguns chambered for the 22 LR cartridge. The latter practice is usually of little practical value because the rifling spreads the unprotected tiny shot so wide and unpredictably that the patterns are very inconsistent. For a short period every summer here we have flying grasshoppers that make very loud, obnoxious noise. I’ve tried taking them down with 22 Long Rifle shotshells with no success, and after patterning the rounds I know why. Hitting one beyond a few inches from the muzzle would be pure chance.

Most ammunition designed for the Judge and others, though, uses large projectiles like 00 and 000 buckshot or even disks. Some loads do consist of or incorporate smaller shot enclosed in plastic cups that help reduce rifling-induced spreading. The larger projectiles evidently tend to act more like conventional bullets although they spread as well. And because the Judge et al. do have rifled barrels they’re not considered SBRs or AOWs.

Why the drafters of the original National Firearms Act legislation decided that concealable firearms with smooth bores were evil and required registration while such guns with rifled bores didn’t is of course impossible to know today. Much of what was included in the NFA and how it’s been interpreted since bears no relationship with logic or other rational thought.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 37143 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
ATF regulations, etc., frequently mention that in order for a “concealable” gun to not be an Any Other Weapon (AOW), it must have a “rifled bore.

....

Why the drafters of the original National Firearms Act legislation decided that concealable firearms with smooth bores were evil and required registration while such guns with rifled bores didn’t is of course impossible to know today.


Plenty of the NFA, like most gun control laws, makes no rational sense, even from the standpoint of wanting "effective" gun control. The reason for this is obvious: the politicians who write gun control laws are idiots that don't know anything about guns.

However, you are mistaken that all AOWs have smooth bores. Here's the definition, verbatim from the NFA:

The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

Effectively, an AOW is a concealable firearm that is not a rifled pistol or revolver, or a shoulderable blackpowder firearm (that last bit about fixed ammunition).

Certainly, this includes smoothbore pistols (which is stupid).

It also includes things like zip guns with rifled barrels, though.

In what universe an inaccurate single shot zip gun is more dangerous and worthy of regulation than a small semiautomatic pistol with sights, I have no idea.

I did find a pretty strong argument that these shotguns could be considered destructive devices (this is how the street sweeper was regulated out of general existence) since they are guns with bores over 0.50" that could be considered "not suitable for sporting purposes."
 
Posts: 3802 | Location: TX | Registered: January 24, 2011Report This Post
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It may be legal, but you may end up spending your entire life savings proving it.



And forget trying it if you live in a restrictive state. NY declared the Rossi Ranch Hand an SBR (and thus illegal in the state), despite it not being one as defined by the law.


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Posts: 14622 | Location: A little box of pine on the 7:29 | Registered: May 17, 2003Report This Post
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I don't need one but I like it! So, you buy a shotgun that has a pistol grip and chop the bbl and put the long grip on it?


David W.

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Posts: 2710 | Location: Winston-Salem, N.C. | Registered: May 30, 2005Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Decker:
How would I even go about converting, say, a Mossberg Cruiser to 14"? Just a new barrel after this grip widget or do I need a new mag tube and spring too?


You cant convert a Mossberg cruiser to 14" without paying the $200 tax stamp.

These firearms were sold as receivers, and never had a stock attached to them. Therefor, the ATF considers them "firearms" and not shotgun, when they are assembled from new receivers with that grip and short barrel, they are over the 26 inch minimum length.

Or something like that. ATF regulations make about as much sense as Obama's foreign policy.

Kind of like how you can never use an AR lower receiver to build an AR pistol if it has already had a rifle stock attached to it. Who comes up with nonsense?


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Posts: 3920 | Location: Floriduh | Registered: October 16, 2004Report This Post
Telecom Ronin
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So it's about the same length as the Mossberg 20ga with a pistol grip. You are just getting a longer grip to offset a shorter barrel.....



http://www.mossberg.com/produc...ctical-6-shot-50450/

I would prefer a 20ga anyway.....I like the idea of a whippet....good car gun
 
Posts: 6305 | Location: DFW is home but currently in PHX | Registered: February 12, 2004Report This Post
certified biohazard
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quote:
Originally posted by cas:
It may be legal, but you may end up spending your entire life savings proving it.


I agree, why tempt fate its $5 for petes sake....
"uh sheriff, because its by definition not a sawed off shotgun, its perfectly legal" rrrrright.
and I actually have that same 14" mossy with a Hogue pistol grip and the $5 stamp.


"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
Edmund Burke
 
Posts: 413 | Location: Florida | Registered: February 18, 2004Report This Post
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A slight thread drift. What are people's thoughts on some of the mares leg lever action pistols? Could you do this with a shotgun? It seems intriguing to me but may not be practical to shoot.
It seems a bit like the arm brace for AR pistols.
 
Posts: 353 | Location: Pearland, Tx | Registered: June 22, 2011Report This Post
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Fantastic shotgun !! Love the shockwave!


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Posts: 3198 | Location: Illinois | Registered: September 15, 2007Report This Post
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http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6...4-Mossberg-500-.html


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Posts: 3198 | Location: Illinois | Registered: September 15, 2007Report This Post
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For a half inch of overall length why bother? Roll Eyes


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Posts: 5319 | Location: Newyorkistan | Registered: March 28, 2007Report This Post
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