I spoke with the NFA branch today and was told they will not accept abbreviations of a trust name for engraving. I was told this is in the written regulations.

Anyone hear this before? I told the man this was routinely done, and he told me this will result in a technical violation that will be discovered the next time the weapon is transferred. The strange thing is, they don't see the receiver, but is this something they key on?

Does anyone know of a link to written regulations on their webpage for this?

Interesting, I spoke with Ted Clutter in 07 and again this year, RLT is a valid abbreviation for Revokable Living Trust. Tedd Clutter is an ATF case worker at ATF headquarters WV. Both of my weapons are engraved as such. http://www.m4orum.com/SMF_Forum/index.php?topic=21.0
If you don't believe me, call Ted yourselves. NFA Branch 304-616-4500

quote:

Originally posted by Klutched:
Interesting, I spoke with Ted Clutter in 07 and again this year, RLT is a valid abbreviation for Revokable Living Trust. Tedd Clutter is an ATF case worker at ATF headquarters WV. Both of my weapons are engraved as such. http://www.m4orum.com/SMF_Forum/index.php?topic=21.0
If you don't believe me, call Ted yourselves. NFA Branch 304-616-4500

I believe you, but today a section chief? told me differently, in no uncertain terms. He said it is clearly written in the regulations. This was not the answer I expected, but it is the one I was given.

I called because I was trying to see if we could do exactly what you have done as shown in your photos. The whole "technical violation" thing didn't sound like a good thing.

Now I need to try to find the written regs.

Maybe it is OK to write RLT, but it is not OK to abbreviate the first part. I'm not sure.

Ted Clutter is a great guy but he is an examiner and does not make legal decisions for the ATF. If you want an answer thats as close to real as you can get you need to contact the tech branch. Nothing on the phone is binding and you have no protection of any kind with that sort of info. Written info from tech branch is not really much protection either but will at least show the court (if such a thing ever happens to you) that you were trying to abide by the statute.
Last thing, Teds a great guy like I said and really doesn't need a thousand guys calling and asking him questions when its really not his job to answer that sort of thing. While he's talking to you on the phone he's not getting the transfers done that are his job. Teds not my examiner so it doesn't really affect my transfer times but its true of all of them. Don't bug the examiners with questions that should be answered by tech branch, legal branch or someone else entirely.

Hope that helps
Frank

quote:

Originally posted by amafrank:
Ted Clutter is a great guy but he is an examiner and does not make legal decisions for the ATF. If you want an answer thats as close to real as you can get you need to contact the tech branch. Nothing on the phone is binding and you have no protection of any kind with that sort of info. Written info from tech branch is not really much protection either but will at least show the court (if such a thing ever happens to you) that you were trying to abide by the statute.
Last thing, Teds a great guy like I said and really doesn't need a thousand guys calling and asking him questions when its really not his job to answer that sort of thing. While he's talking to you on the phone he's not getting the transfers done that are his job. Teds not my examiner so it doesn't really affect my transfer times but its true of all of them. Don't bug the examiners with questions that should be answered by tech branch, legal branch or someone else entirely.

Hope that helps
Frank

Ted is my case worker, anything I mail to the ATF, he snags and works it quickly. I have multiple emails from him reiterating what he has told me over the phone. You have to spell out the business or persons name, but the words Revocable Living Trust can be abbreviated to RLT.
I agree, do not call Ted Clutter over this matter, actually the # I posted is the main number ,not his extension, so anyone should be able to answer your questions I realize that Ted does not make legal decisions for the ATF, but he is not going to tell you to do something that violates NFA/ATF regulations.

In addition to this, the NFA/ATF is too busy to persue you over what would be a technical violation as long as you had prior verifcation and were following the "spirit of the law". Contrary to popular belief, the ATF is there to help you, not to screw you over.

In researching this further, I believe I found the regulations I was told to look for.

I have never spoken with Ted Clutter, and I never intended to create a question regarding his understanding of the regulations. I believe what he said regarding abbreviations is correct. Furthermore, the explanation Klutched gave regarding what can and cannot be abbreviated makes a lot of sense.

I was asked to call the NFA branch to help clarify a question that came up during the drafting of our trust agreement, and I think the answer they gave me helped answer our question.

deepocean - I don't think you are correct and I VERY sure you are MISTAKEN. Abbreviations are used all throughout the firearms industry to mark firearms in accordance with the federal regulations. I don't mean to accuse you of stirring the pot but your post sounds fishy.. someone has offered you a phone number of someone he knows in the ATF who will tell you what I have been told on many occasions by the ATF.

So read my post...

quote:

Originally posted by sig228-gsr:
deepocean - I don't think you are correct and I VERY sure you are MISTAKEN. Abbreviations are used all throughout the firearms industry to mark firearms in accordance with the federal regulations. I don't mean to accuse you of stirring the pot but your post sounds fishy.. someone has offered you a phone number of someone he knows in the ATF who will tell you what I have been told on many occasions by the ATF.

So read my post...

I'm not sure if you read my last post, but my only goal was to learn more so I can go forward with what I want to do. I'm not sure what you mean about it sounding fishy, but I never meant to cause any controversy here. I admit I am new to this, but I was told to call by a guy who has a lot more legal knowledge about NFA issues than I do. He suggested I call because he didn't have a precise answer to my question. It's OK even for experienced people not to know everything. The only way to learn is to ask.

I agree abbreviations are used. I thought that before I called. I've seen it myself. That's why I was surprised by what I was told.

The information you posted is similar to what I found last night. It seems to occur a few times in the regulations: in the NFA, and some other places, too. I'm not sure the regs I found are conclusive, so I didn't post them.

The term "recognized abbreviation" is the part that is open to interpretation. What does "recognized" mean? I can't say for sure, and I'm betting none of us can say with 100% certainty.

The important thing is for each of us to do whatever we feel is right. I learned enough to help guide my decision, and I am moving on to other things.

If the Form 1/4 was approved from BATFE with "RLT" then it is obviously OK.

quote:

Originally posted by sig228-gsr:
deepocean - I don't think you are correct and I VERY sure you are MISTAKEN. Abbreviations are used all throughout the firearms industry to mark firearms in accordance with the federal regulations.

Never use "But other people are doing it," just because they are doesn't mean it's legal for you to do so. In particular manufacturers can get variances that allow them to do things that aren't exactly to the letter of federal regulations.

My Title 2 From 1 was submitted (twice) with the words "Revokable Living Trust" and my rifle is engraved with "RLT", which, according to the ATF, is perfectly fine.

If you draw up your trust correctly, you do not need your name or 'revokable living' in the title as long as the trust is defined within the trust as a 'revokable living' one with all the specifications and you are the grantor and trustee.

I'm not sure why everyone tries to spell out their name and add the term Revokable Living Trust in the actual name of the trust. I have had two friends of mine just named their RLTs as the "RRB Trust" and "WRWJ Trust" The letters in the trust are the actual name of the Trust. Why not make a trust and call it the "BADASS Alabama Trust" or something else fun. Anyway... the point is that you have options when definiing the name of the RLT.

quote:

Originally posted by rdswriter:
If you draw up your trust correctly, you do not need your name or 'revokable living' in the title as long as the trust is defined within the trust as a 'revokable living' one with all the specifications and you are the grantor and trustee.

I'm not sure why everyone tries to spell out their name and add the term Revokable Living Trust in the actual name of the trust. I have had two friends of mine just named their RLTs as the "RRB Trust" and "WRWJ Trust" The letters in the trust are the actual name of the Trust. Why not make a trust and call it the "BADASS Alabama Trust" or something else fun. Anyway... the point is that you have options when definiing the name of the RLT.

That is awesome, I am going to write a second trust for my next weapons, it is going to be "this is my rifle" RLT. or "Semper Fi" RLT

When I had all my SBR's engraved, RLT was acceptable. So what has changed? I don't think you'd get jacked up abbreviating revocable living trust as RLT in your engraving.

On all my form 1's, under additional markings, I put my name and RLT, with city and state. None of my form 1's were kicked back citing improper engraving/markings.

Surely there must be a list of approved and accepted abbreviations or a method of recognizing an abbreviation for the purposes of engraving. I vaguely recall a cite for standard abbreviations that was discussed in this forum some time back.

This is timely for me because I am sending another form 1 off for approval.