SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  Mason's Rifle Room    Recommendation - simple rifle for marksmanship
Page 1 2 3 
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Recommendation - simple rifle for marksmanship Login/Join 
Member
Picture of konata88
posted
I haven't shot for a long time - I'm only shooting may be 2-4 times per year. Mostly handgun - can't remember the last time I shot a rifle.

I don't know much about rifles or rifle calibers. I only have an AR15 and a 10/22.

It's a hassle using an AR15 out here. The 10/22 is good but I only use it out to 50 yards.

I'd like to get a simple rifle that:

1) doesn't have a pistol grip. Apparently, pistol grips are evil out here.

2) Likewise, need a fixed stock; but one that adjust for cheek weld and optics might be good.

3) Not sure about muzzle devices - I think they are okay.

4) I think I prefer semi-auto but open to bolt action

5) I think I prefer 5.56 (so I don't need to buy more ammo) but open to recommendations

6) Would like a picatinny rail for optics (scope, RDS)

7) Reasonable price (<$1000? definitely <$2000)

8) Would use to shoot out to 300 yards. Goal: Would like to achieve < 2 MOA out to 300 yards.

Need some help with a short list. There are just too many brands, models and calibers combinations. The quick list seems like the mini-14. But I just want to buy once for something like this.

I had planned to use the AR but people are just stupid out here and it makes using the AR complicated.




"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - B.Franklin
"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy
 
Posts: 8054 | Location: In the gilded cage | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
If you are talking California, then an AR is certainly not on the list. Honestly a solid bolt action is likely the best route. Don’t discount a high quality .22 either. I shoot .22 matches out to 300+ yards. Something like a Ruger precision in .223 would be just the ticket. Just about every maker puts out a good solid .223 bolt gun if you want to go .223
 
Posts: 2456 | Location: Finally free in AZ! | Registered: February 14, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Also keep in mind all those restrictions you mentioned apply to semi auto rifles only, so any of those features you mentioned muzzle devices pistol grips adjustable stocks etc are just fine on a bolt gun
 
Posts: 2456 | Location: Finally free in AZ! | Registered: February 14, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Id go bolt gun as well.

In .223, Tikka Varmint.

If you can swing a .308 the Tikka CTR is A LOT of rifle for the money, same for the Ruger RPR.


________________________________
 
Posts: 7477 | Location: One step ahead of you | Registered: February 10, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted Hide Post
Although I would echo the advice about getting a decent bolt action in 223 Remington, something to keep in mind about your stock of 5.56mm ammunition is that it’s generally recommended that 5.56 ammunition not be fired in 223 chambers. There are many Internet articles—some even good—that explain why that is, but in short, doing that might lead to excessive chamber pressures.

The actual dangers of such a practice seem to be exaggerated because it’s hard to believe that everyone who has a 223 rifle has never fired 5.56 ammunition with it either unknowingly or thinking “What can it hurt?” I don’t make a practice of it, but the few times I’ve tried 5.56 ammunition in my Tikka T3 I’ve seen no high pressure signs.*

I get the impression that some manufacturers of mid-priced 223 rifles these days are chambering them so they will safely fire 5.56 ammunition even if they’re not marked that way, but the difference between the two cartridges is something to be aware of if you’re planning to shoot 5.56 with the gun. The one specific bolt action rifle I’m aware of that’s chambered to fire 5.56 and 223 safely is the Ruger Precision.

And keep in mind that there isn’t a lot of high grade match quality 5.56 ammunition out there. Anything that was bought in 1000 round lots for <$400 is unlikely to produce precise results regardless of the quality of the rifle. I would be surprised if ammunition of that quality held less than 2 MOA groups at 300 yards (or even shorter ranges).

To return to the type of rifle, I don’t have any semiautomatics in 223/5.56 that I expect to produce precise long range results. I bought the Tikka specifically to serve as a training companion to the same gun in 308 Winchester, and it serves that purpose well. Unless one has a specific need for a high volume of rapid fire, bolt actions offer several advantages, in my opinion of course.

* Lest someone think I was an idiot for doing so, at the time I had reason to believe that the rifle was specifically designed to permit doing that safely; later I was unable to confirm that belief.




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 39943 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
.22lr is an option out to 300 yards, but it's a challenge -- especially in any kind of wind. Most semi-auto .22lr rifles aren't up to the task of 200+ yards, therefore a bolt action is preferred. But there are 10/22-ish semi-autos that are quite accurate, such as Volquartsen, Kidd, and TacSol. Quality .22lr ammo for distance work is expensive, probably a lot more costly than what you're using now in your 10/22.

A .223 Remy bolt action is a very good option. Note .223 and not 5.56. I have yet to see 5.56 factory "match" ammo that equals its counterpart's accuracy in .223. This includes Black Hills, Hornady, and Frontier ammo in rifles chambered in 5.56, Wylde, and .223. If you're looking for a .223 bolt rifle, ixnay on a 5.56 chamber.

There are a number of .223 bolt actions from factories -- including Ruger, Mossberg, Savage, Howa, Remington, CZ, Tikka, Browning, and Weatherby. Your requirements of less than 2 MOA accuracy out to 300 yards is pretty easy in a bolt action. Every one of my AR-15s does than in spades with factory match ammo. I suspect any of the previously listed factory 223 bolt rifles should do this with the right ammo. I haven't shot all of them, but I do like the Tikkas that I've shot. Ruger and Savage should also be on your list to try. I highly recommend trying before buying.

Have you thought about optics? Brand, reticle type, glass quality, turret features, magnification, and budget. At your ballpark range for rifle cost, the scope could cost half as much as the rifle, or all the way up to 2 or 3 times the cost of the rifle. Understand that the optics are a rifle's steering system.

You could look at large calibers than 223. If you hand load, the mid-capacity 6mm bores are great -- Dasher, BR, BRA, BRX. Or 6x47 Lapua for a more energetic load. Factory 6mm ammo limits you to 6 Creedmoor and 243 Win. Understand that barrel life is pretty low in 6mm bores -- maybe 1700-1800 rounds for the most energetic loads, up to 2500-ish rounds for the more tame ones.

The next step up is 6.5mm bores. Factory ammo is available for 6.5 Creedmoor and 260 Remy. Handloads for both, plus 6.5x47 Lapua. 6.5 Creedmoor is the best option if you rely on factory ammo. Barrel life of maybe 3,000 rounds.

Going up again is 7mm. Handloading gives you a few options, but factory is pretty much 7mm-08.

And then there's .308 Win. Lots of factory ammo options and lots of rifle options. Barrel life of 5,000+ rounds. Lots more recoil than the small bores.

I recommend going with a 223 bolt action. I just went this way, and I dropped off the parts to my gunsmith last weekend. I won the stock, action, and barrel in rifle competitions, and found a good deal on a trigger. Therefore my primary costs are purchasing the action and paying my 'smith to assemble it. Probably not the way you will go.

Consider how much you plan to shoot your new rifle, whatever its configuration. I have expectations of at least 15,000 to 20,000 rounds. I expect to wear out barrels every 4,000 to 5,000 rounds, and I wanted an action that would last through multiple barrel changes. I intend this to be my primary training rifle for positional shooting -- i.e. from barriers, barricades, and wonky positions. If you don't plan on putting all that many rounds down range on this rifle, then consider the lower cost options.

Muzzle devices -- flash hiders offer no value for your use. Brakes reduce recoil by a boatload, but the best brakes add muzzle blast and increase the gun's loudness by at least 10 db. Suppressors (if you are allowed to own them) reduce recoil almost as much as a brake, and of course cut the gun's loudness by 25-30 db.
 
Posts: 6070 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of P250UA5
posted Hide Post
Another vote for a Tikka from me.
Love my T3x Lite Stainless in 270, tips the scale at about 8 pounds without the magazine. IIRC it was in the ~$700 range when I bought it.




The Enemy's gate is down.
 
Posts: 6991 | Location: Spring, TX | Registered: July 11, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of konata88
posted Hide Post
Thanks guys. I appreciate the guidance.

I may have to do an inventory as I'm not sure how much 223 vs 556 ammo I have. I'm trying not to buy any ammo from the get-go. Buying ammo out here has become rather tedious as well. I can't wait to retire and leave this god-forsaken state.

In any case, sounds like a bolt action 223 is the general recommendation.

Short list sounds like:
Ruger Precision
Tikka
Savage

With considerations for these as well:
Mossberg
Howa
Browning
Weatherby
Remington

I'm not looking for a muzzle device per se; perhaps a brake would be nice (but probably not needed for 223). I just haven't bought a rifle out here in awhile and not sure what stupid rules are in place now; I just know that the state hates flash hiders for whatever delusional reason they can come up with. But sounds like it doesn't matter for bolt actions per Captain - muzzle devices, pistol grip, adjustable stock all okay for bolt actions.

I have some optics already that I've been using for the AR and 10/22. A VX2 and a Nikon (been so long that I forgot what models and magnification). I'll probably start with that for now. The plan is to work at 200 yards first and then work my way out to 300 yards.

I'll take a look at the Ruger Precision, Tikka and Savage 223 bolt action offerings. See if anything catches my eye.




"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - B.Franklin
"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy
 
Posts: 8054 | Location: In the gilded cage | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of P250UA5
posted Hide Post
My Tikka has a Nikon Monarch on it & it's one of the best scopes I've used, but wasn't cheap.

My boss put a Prostaff on his Tikka 243 & is quite happy with it as well.
Buckmasters (discontinued, replaced with Buckmasters II) on my brother-in-law's Rem700 308

The Prostaff & Buckmaster make for a easier to swallow pricetag with what I think is still a good/clear/crisp scope picture.




The Enemy's gate is down.
 
Posts: 6991 | Location: Spring, TX | Registered: July 11, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Agree on the .223 choice for 300 yards. My top contender for a .223 bolt gun would be the Remington 700 Stainless 5R, part number 85504. Great rifle to start with in my opinion.






 
Posts: 156 | Location: Upstate NY | Registered: September 26, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of konata88
posted Hide Post
Okay, did a quick website scan:

1. Seems like Ruger Precision not offered in 223 so maybe that's off the table unless I move to 308. Ruger in 223 seems limited to the American line

2. The Tikka T3x TAC A1 seems nice with all the features I think I would want. But I couldn't quickly find a dealer (local / online) or a price. I'll search some more.

3. Savage 10 Stealth Evolution seems similar to the Tikka although a little pricey at $1800. But seems like it might be readily available at local dealers.

4. I'll look up the Rem 700 5R. I glanced at the Rem 700 Tactical Chassis but it's way to expensive ($2900+). They seem to a few Rem 700 Magpul offerings - not sure what the differences are yet but they are more reasonably priced.

2 questions:
1). Any chance these 223 rifles accommodate standard AR15 mags? Or am I going to have to buy new sets of mags? Ability to use AR15 mags is a plus.

2) Do I need to consider twist rate? Some are 1:8, others are 1:9. Should I focus on 1:8 or doesn't matter?




"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - B.Franklin
"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy
 
Posts: 8054 | Location: In the gilded cage | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
Picture of ensigmatic
posted Hide Post
I already have my "tack-driver," but, if I were going to do it today I'd have to take a very close look at Ruger's new Hawkeye Long-Range Target in 6.5 PRC.

. No pistol grip: Check
. Fixed stock: Check, with adjustable comb: Check (bonus: adjustable pull length, too)
. Muzzle device: Check (brake)
. Semi-auto: Nope (bolt--see below)
. 5.56: Nope (.300 Win Mag, 6.5 Creedmore, 6.5 PRC - see below)
. Picatinny rail: Check
. Reasonable price: Check ($1280 MSRP)
. Under 2 MOA: I should certainly think so!

Re: Action and cartridge

Maybe I'm old school, but my feeling is that, if you want a "reach out and touch something" rifle you want a bolt gun. Likewise ammo choice. I'm not diss'ing the .223/5.56, but there are rounds with much better ballistics for distance.

N.B.: Expect to spend at least half again the cost of the rifle on a scope that will do the rifle justice.




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
The dominant media is no more "mainstream" than leftists are liberals.
 
Posts: 15939 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Yeah, that M14 video guy...
Picture of benny6
posted Hide Post
I’ve got a low round count Bula XM21 I’m not using that I can part with. It’s scope only and has an 18” barrel. Let me drop it into a wood stock and see what accuracy is like. It may fit your bill and will be under $2,000.

The XM21 is a scope only M14, so 308 will be your caliber. It has a muzzle brake and will have a 10 round magazine.

I’ll make sure it meets your accuracy expectations.

Tony.


Owner, TonyBen, LLC, Type-01 FFL
www.tonybenm14.com (Site under construction).
e-mail: tonyben@tonybenm14.com
 
Posts: 3277 | Location: USA | Registered: February 13, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
OP. Stated budget for the rifle only?
 
Posts: 2636 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by konata88:
Okay, did a quick website scan....

The Tikka isn't cheap -- listed at $1800 on EuroOptic.com
Street price on the Savage should be less.
I don't know much about the Ruger American -- I'm more familiar with the Precision.

Remington comes in both 700 and Seven series for 223. Seven is a little shorter action. There are mixed opinions on Remington's quality, although most of the Remy rifles I've shot or fondled seemed reasonable.

I believe only the Mossberg rifle uses AR-15 mags. It's worth reviewing the price and availability of magazines for the rifle you consider buying.

I recommend a barrel with a twist rate of between 1/7 and 1/8. The 1/9 twist may limit you to bullets of 69 grains or less. If accuracy at 100-300 yards is your goal, you want at least a 69 grain bullet. Better yet, there are match bullets of 73-77 grains that will buck wind better -- and these heavier bullets pretty much demand a 1/8 twist barrel. There's nothing wrong with a 1/7 twist, if that's what is offered in a given rifle model. FWIW, my most accurate AR-15 barrels are 1/7.7 twist. My new bolt action 223 is 1/8 twist.

223 is a perfectly good caliber for 100-300 yard paper punching and steel ringing. I use my 223 AR-15s regularly in competition to 600+ yards. They are perfectly capable at 300 yards or less. Let's look at recoil for various rounds, in an average-weight rifle without a brake/can/comp:
223 -- 3 to 4 foot pounds
243/6 Creedmoor -- 8 to 11 foot pounds
6.5/260 -- 12 to 13 foot pounds
7mm-08 -- 13 to 14 foot pounds
308 -- 16 to 18 foot pounds
6.5PRC -- probably 19 to 20 foot pounds
The bigger magnum bores go up from here.

It will be easier for you to learn the fundamentals of marksmanship with a low-recoiling rifle. It takes great recoil management skills to actually see one's bullet impact the target at 200 yards with even a 6mm bore rifle. Consistently seeing your own impacts at 300 yards is beyond the skills of most people with a 308. Even fewer shooters have ever watched the trace of their own bullet as it flies to the target. Learn to shoot with a "mouse gun" 223. The best steel/tactical/precision competitors in my neck of the woods tend to train with 223, 22lr, and .17 PCP air rifles -- because they recoil less.

Now let't talk flight ballistics at 300 yards at my altitude, form a 100 yard zero:
223, in my 20" barrel AR-15, 73 grain bullet -- 3.5 MOA drop (11.0") and 2.0 MOA of wind drift in a 10 mph crosswind
6.5 Creedmoor, in my 26" barrel, 140 grain bullet -- 3.6 MOA drop (11.2") and 1.2 MOA of wind drift
308, in my 23" barrel, 175 grain bullet -- 4.5 MOA drop (14.0") and 1.7 MOA of wind drift

The flight differences among calibers are less at 200 yards.

You will be well served in your intended purpose at your stated distance with a 223 rifle.
 
Posts: 6070 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of konata88
posted Hide Post
I was getting interested in the Tikka T3x TAC or the Savage Stealth Evolution because of how much it seems to share with the AR15 platform but can't find a seller for the 223 version, only 308 or 6.5 Creedmoor. So, I may need to shift calibers to something other than 223 or accept regular rifle stock style (no pistol grip, no adjustable stock).

Allowed AR15 configs are insanely limiting out here; to me, they are effectively banned so it just stays at home. I was planning to use the AR15 for this but it can no longer be the case. But I was hoping to be able share ammo, mags, optics and other accessories.

It sounds like I'm going to need to choose being sharing ammo and using a non-pistol grip, fixed stock config or go with a new caliber (308 or 6.5 Creedmoor). But buying ammo is a pain out here now as well.

I will still shoot/practice with my 10/22 but would like to get some real experience shooting out to 300 yards.

I didn't know that people can actually watch the trace of their own bullet. At my age, I can't even keep my eye on the ball for tennis or baseball Smile

I'm trying to keep the rifle under $1000 but can maybe squeeze in a little more (buy once, cry once). Budget will be more if I can reuse existing AR15 accessories and ammo. Less if I can't.




"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - B.Franklin
"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy
 
Posts: 8054 | Location: In the gilded cage | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Casuistic Thinker and Daoist
Picture of 9mmepiphany
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by konata88:
Okay, did a quick website scan:

1. Seems like Ruger Precision not offered in 223 so maybe that's off the table unless I move to 308. Ruger

Here's one in .223 at Bud's Gun Shop for <$1k

https://www.budsgunshop.com/ca...019+223rem+20+10%2B1




No, Daoism isn't a religion



 
Posts: 13369 | Location: northern california | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by konata88:
I was getting interested in the Tikka T3x TAC or the Savage Stealth Evolution because of how much it seems to share with the AR15 platform but can't find a seller for the 223 version

Does google not work in California? There are options on the first page of a google search I just did.
I recommend a 223 for your shooting. Even if the rifle stock and grip configuration does not match an AR-15 exactly.

quote:
Originally posted by konata88:
I didn't know that people can actually watch the trace of their own bullet. At my age, I can't even keep my eye on the ball for tennis or baseball

That's not eyesight quality -- it's shooting technique quality. One first must learn to shoot a rifle well enough that recoil does not move the reticle from point of aim. Well, maybe movement of 1-2 MOA off point of aim, but that's it.

What occurs when most people shoot:
- pull the trigger
- gun goes boom
- gun moves all over the place, and the target may not even be visible in the scope
- shooter moves gun back to target, places reticle on point of aim, and proudly claims "I see my shot"
- yeah right

What occurs with a shooter with advanced fundamentals of marksmanship:
- pull the trigger
- gun goes boom
- gun recoils slightly backwards, but crosshairs remain on target
- shooter keeps eyes open the whole time, focused on target
- if the distance to target is great enough, the shooter sees the bullet impact the target. On steel targets, this means watching a gray blur strip the paint off the steel and watching the bullet shards spread in all directions.
- if the distance to target is a little more and the atmospheric conditions are good, the shooter watches a gray/transparent blur gracefully arc up, then down, towards the target. The shooter then watches the bullet splat into the steel target. If there's any cross wind, the shooter sees the gray/transparent blur gracefully arc sideways with the wind. All this occurs in a few tenth's of a second, depending on the distance to the target.
 
Posts: 6070 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of konata88
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:
quote:
Originally posted by konata88:
Okay, did a quick website scan:

1. Seems like Ruger Precision not offered in 223 so maybe that's off the table unless I move to 308. Ruger

Here's one in .223 at Bud's Gun Shop for <$1k

https://www.budsgunshop.com/ca...019+223rem+20+10%2B1


Hey! Thanks! Nice find. Is Bud's GtG? Not really familiar w/ them. It's bolt action so this should be be okay to buy out here, right? I was going to do some checking because I haven't been keeping up on this stuff for the past few years or so.




"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - B.Franklin
"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy
 
Posts: 8054 | Location: In the gilded cage | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Yeah, that M14 video guy...
Picture of benny6
posted Hide Post
Here's a picture of something similar, if this would fit what you're open to...




Here's what I have but I'll drop it in a walnut stock when I get home and snap a picture...



I can let it go for $1,500 with a 10 round magazine.

Tony.


Owner, TonyBen, LLC, Type-01 FFL
www.tonybenm14.com (Site under construction).
e-mail: tonyben@tonybenm14.com
 
Posts: 3277 | Location: USA | Registered: February 13, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2 3  
 

SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  Mason's Rifle Room    Recommendation - simple rifle for marksmanship

© SIGforum 2019