SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  Mason's Rifle Room    So you want a 9mm "Subgun"?
Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
So you want a 9mm "Subgun"? Login/Join 
Get on the fifty!
Picture of Andyb
posted
(Work in progress)

I see the question asked all the time, wanting to know what 9mm "Subgun" on the market currently is the one to get. Well?

This isn't meant to be an in-depth review, more of a comparison between what is available out there. I have also SBR'd all of these. If you don't want to go through that hassle, I would consider them fairly pointless in any other form. Braced is acceptable Wink



First lets talk price. You can get a CZ Scorpion EVO for around $800 in pistol form where as an MP5 clone pretty much starts at $1500 and goes up from there. A semi UZI or Sterling can be had for around $900. Want even more of an oddball firearm? B&T has the APC9, P26, and TP9 on the market currently. These will range from $1200(P26) to $2100 (APC9) with the TP9 falling the middle around $1700.

Scorpion EVO

I'll say it. If you want just one 9mm rifle of this type, get the EVO. It is flat out the best bang for your buck out there. By far. Yes its direct blowback. Yes its not as fancy as some of the other guns here, but you know what? It works. I have more than 2000 rounds through mine and it hasn't hiccuped. Ive shot it suppressed/unsuppressed and tried it with just about every type of ammo I have. It just runs. Trigger is decent. Mags/parts are cheap and the aftermarket support for it is excellent. Everyone needs an EVO.

So now thats out of the way what about the others with price tags that make you sniffle a little?

MP5

We'll start with the MP5 and it's roller delayed blowback. So you want an MP5? The clones on the market are plentiful currently. My full-size was built by Dave Getz who unfortunately is no longer building them. Thankfully MKE/Zenith have entered the market with their Z5 series guns. The K in the photo is an MKE gun. HK has also come back to the market with it's SP5K.

Naturally you would get the HK right? Wrong. It is missing several features that are standard on others I would consider necessities. For example the SP5k does not have a 3 lug/threaded barrel or a paddle mag release and also costs considerably more. If you MUST have HK on your gun go for it, if not, read on.

MKE/Zenith is the best value on the market currently for an MP5 clone. They are built on HK tooling and have all the features they should. They come with 3 mags, a cleaning kit, and a nice hard case. They also use true two push pin trigger housings.

The roller delayed blowback of the MP5 makes it an absolute sweetheart to shoot. You could shoot it all day and not be any worse for wear. The recoil is softer than the Scorpion. Does it make the MP5 superior? Not really. Especially when the MP5 costs twice as much as the EVO. As a note, I do think the MP5's suppress extremely well. Mags are relatively expensive ranging from $30-$80. Replacement parts and accessories tend to carry a premium as well but hey, it's an MP5, man.

UZI

What about an UZI? They are available and still not crazy expensive (not counting the Mini UZI). Mine is built by Vector and runs like a top. Had some teething pains but it now runs 100% after a couple hundred rounds. Magazines and spare parts are plentiful and cheap. Built and handles like a brick. Way too heavy. Ergonomics suck and the grip feels like a 2x4. I love the UZI.

Sterling

If you've seen Star Wars you've seen a Sterling, but before it was the Empire's blaster of choice it was a British SMG that was used into the 90's. Mine was manufactured by Wiselite years ago. They are not very common but are out there. Heavier than it needs to be and folding/unfolding the stock is a pain. Simple design which I like. No support for them so if something goes wrong you're sorta SOL. They are cool though and a piece of history.

Kriss Vector

How about a gun that looks like you went forward in time and brought back a downward recoiling Glock mag taking future gun? Look no further. They recently released the Gen 2 with a better trigger and safety throw along with a few other enhancements. Has a threaded barrel from the factory. Available in 9mm, .45 (my version) and 10mm

P26

B&T is an OEM manufacture for HK if you've never heard of them, but they also produce several weapons of their own.

First up is the B&T P26. A direct blowback, AR trigger using, Swiss Tec-9 with a 3 lug barrel. They are only importing 400 of these so they are not as readily available as the other guns mentioned but can still be found. They use the same magazine as the B&T APC and TP-9 which was my reasoning when I purchased it Big Grin I got my Form 1 back a few weeks ago and have not had a chance to shoot it with the stock on. Will update once that happens, but shooting it in pistol form it was a smooth shooting gun. Military Arms Channel just uploaded a video on it that is done well if you'd like to see it in operation. Suppresses well. Value wise it is edged out by the Scorpion due to cost but I would place it as a solid second. The more recent imports have a threaded 3 lug barrel. Mags are expensive at $75 per and there aren't any aftermarket accessories specifically made for the gun.

TP9

Next is the TP9, the semi version of the MP9. These are based on the Steyr TMP whom B&T purchased the design from in 2001. It is a compact PDW type weapon that uses a rotating barrel design. Whats that?

"When fired, recoil causes both the steel bolt and steel barrel to move rearward for a short distance. During this movement, a locking pin located in the upper section of the bushing-like barrel guide at the muzzle end of the pistol engages a control cam cut into the barrel. This cam causes the eight-lug barrel to rotate clockwise, unlocking it from the bolt assembly and allowing the bolt to continue rearward to cycle the action."

The TP9 is a cool little gun, but with expensive mags, proprietary suppressor mount, and so-so trigger I would only purchase one if you already have another 9mm gun of the type. Sort of like the guy that owns a yellow Ferrari, it means he already has a red one.

APC9

Last but not least is the most expensive gun here and that is the B&T APC9. If these were all watches the APC-9 would be the Rolex and I say that confidently. If you get the chance to hold one/take it apart, do it. They are so finely machined on the inside its almost a piece of art. They use AR triggers and have a hydraulic buffer in the back. Something I've noticed in my reading on them is people really take issue with the direct blowback mode of operation for these. I'm not sure if that is so much from an operational standpoint as it is that these things cost mega bucks and it works the same way as a Scorpion. Then again a Casio still tells the time same as the Rolex. I have 1150 rounds through this gun and it works well. Also available in .45

9mm "Subguns" are my favorite type of gun to shoot and I really enjoy all the different offerings on the market currently. This is only a sampling. Honorable mention to the MPX.

All of that said, this is written from the perspective of a collector/shooter. I'm not doing anything serious with these and if SHTF id be reaching for a rifle caliber gun. Hopefully this is helpful to someone out there!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Andyb,




When in doubt, pinky out.
 
Posts: 2695 | Location: Oklahoma | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Moderator
Picture of arcwelder76
posted Hide Post
Just looking at your pic I thought you had a Steyr SPP, the semiauto TMP. Basically you do, but it looks just like the one I got to play with years ago. Haven't seen one in ages.


Arc.
______________________________

"Like a bitter weed, I'm a bad seed"- Johnny Cash

"I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel." - Pee Wee Herman

 
Posts: 23397 | Location: Love that dirty water, oh | Registered: June 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Thats a nice collection and writeup. Im going to sbr a cz scorpion and add the zhukov stock.

Were the LPA sights on the cz easy to find? I dont see these available anywhere.
 
Posts: 246 | Registered: January 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Wreckless
posted Hide Post
You need a nice Sterling to round out that collection.


La Dolce Vita
 
Posts: 193 | Location: SW Florida & SNJ | Registered: July 26, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Get on the fifty!
Picture of Andyb
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by xmod:
Were the LPA sights on the cz easy to find? I dont see these available anywhere.


You'll love it. I got the LPA sights directly from the CZ site. I imagine they come and go in batches, might want to get on their list.

quote:
Originally posted by Wreckless:
You need a nice Sterling to round out that collection.


Way ahead of you there Wink They are just not readily available or currently being produced so I left it out. Should probably add it in.




When in doubt, pinky out.
 
Posts: 2695 | Location: Oklahoma | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Banned
posted Hide Post
Thanks for this thread. I've been looking at 9mm options and you have convinced me to go with the EVO. I just want something that will go bang when I pull the trigger. Couldn't care less that it is blowback.
 
Posts: 1562 | Location: Chester County, PA | Registered: February 12, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Wait, what?
Picture of gearhounds
posted Hide Post
Fired a buddy's scorpion with brace yesterday. It sported a Primary Arms red dot and was very accurate at 50 yards. The brace was extremely effective for shooting in, shall we say, alternative positions. It will also bump fire easily, if you just like burning ammo up close Big Grin




Proudly deplorable
 
Posts: 7444 | Location: Martinsburg WV | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of argolfer
posted Hide Post
What a great collection! What about your UZI though?


___________________________________
No, it's a cardigan... but thanks for noticing
 
Posts: 4332 | Location: Texas | Registered: July 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Get on the fifty!
Picture of Andyb
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by argolfer:
What a great collection! What about your Uzi though?


Might have to add a few extras Razz

Added an UZI paragraph.




When in doubt, pinky out.
 
Posts: 2695 | Location: Oklahoma | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of argolfer
posted Hide Post
Thanks! I just saw your pic of it in the NFA Pic thread Smile

I love 9mm subguns too! I only have an AR9 and an MPX for now though, but an EVO, an MP5 and an UZI are on my list. After that I may venture into the B&T game. I did used to own a Kel Tec Sub2000, but my brother really wanted it.

So, do you also have an MPX?


___________________________________
No, it's a cardigan... but thanks for noticing
 
Posts: 4332 | Location: Texas | Registered: July 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Get on the fifty!
Picture of Andyb
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by argolfer:
So, do you also have an MPX?


Careful with the B&T's, once you get one it's much easier to rationalize the others since they use the same magazine Wink

I had an MPX. Without going too far into it I had several issues with the gun and it took multiple trips to SIG (each time being assured it was fixed) and a couple new lower receivers. One had very poor tool marks/the trigger pins walked out and another gouged itself with the selector. They wouldn't even give me an RMA at first until I raised hell. It left such a bad taste I planned to sell it but ended up giving it to my dad. He enjoys it and it runs well. They aren't bad guns but Sig screwed the pooch hard and more than once for me with how it was launched (Gen1/2) and then how they handled the CS side with my gun.




When in doubt, pinky out.
 
Posts: 2695 | Location: Oklahoma | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
When the will is strong, everything is easy
Picture of celticwolf
posted Hide Post
Glad to see you bring some attention to the b&t guns. I am waiting for the Grasshopper Mouse 9 coming next year. Why did they name it after a rodent? Cause the GHM loves to eat Scorpions.


"You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of
avoiding reality." Ayn Rand
 
Posts: 2012 | Location: SC | Registered: April 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Get on the fifty!
Picture of Andyb
posted Hide Post
Updated the original post.

quote:
Originally posted by celticwolf:
Glad to see you bring some attention to the b&t guns. I am waiting for the Grasshopper Mouse 9 coming next year. Why did they name it after a rodent? Cause the GHM loves to eat Scorpions.


I read those cleared customs this week Eek Check with G&R tactical.

Edit: Nvm I was thinking of the KH9. They look very similar though.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showt...-amp-T-KH9-is-coming




When in doubt, pinky out.
 
Posts: 2695 | Location: Oklahoma | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of kimberkid
posted Hide Post
Sweet, as expected when we see your posts! Your BT's are particularly appealing Big Grin

Besides the Sterling, I was surprised you didn't include the PS90 ... But then it isn't a 9.
I had one but didn't like it enough to SBR it then a buddy at work was wanting "something different" and since I had the AR57 upper and a F/A bolt I don't miss it anyway.


If you really want something you'll find a way ...
... if you don't you'll find an excuse.

I'm really not a "kid" anymore ... but I haven't grown up yet either Wink
 
Posts: 3990 | Registered: January 11, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of kimberkid
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by celticwolf:
Glad to see you bring some attention to the b&t guns. I am waiting for the Grasshopper Mouse 9 coming next year. Why did they name it after a rodent? Cause the GHM loves to eat Scorpions.

Like this?


If you really want something you'll find a way ...
... if you don't you'll find an excuse.

I'm really not a "kid" anymore ... but I haven't grown up yet either Wink
 
Posts: 3990 | Registered: January 11, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Get on the fifty!
Picture of Andyb
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by kimberkid:
Besides the Sterling, I was surprised you didn't include the PS90 ... But then it isn't a 9.


It became a new gun once I SBR'd the ps90. I bought it with that intention. Had I not been able to get rid of the 16in barrel I'd of probably sold it as well.

Tried to keep it to 9mm since its the most prevalent. I've got the 5.7 and a couple .45's kicking around though.




When in doubt, pinky out.
 
Posts: 2695 | Location: Oklahoma | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of argolfer
posted Hide Post
Any other 9mm subguns that you're considering? Do you plan to complete the trifecta with an MP5 SD?

What suppressor do you use on them?

That full-sized MP5 and UZI are killing me! Do you recommend the Vector UZI then? Any others to consider?

Thanks again for the write-up Smile


___________________________________
No, it's a cardigan... but thanks for noticing
 
Posts: 4332 | Location: Texas | Registered: July 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Delusions of Adequacy
Picture of zoom6zoom
posted Hide Post
This is an original Sterling Mk VI, which was factory produced as a Semi. It's the real deal, not a Wiselite copy. Only about 1600 were built; I have not been able to find any information on how many may have made it to the US. Pretty rare as is, which is why I never SBR'd it.

The scope is also Sterling branded.
The "short" mag is Canadian made. They used a modified design to circumvent patents.





I have my own style of humor. I call it Snarkasm.
 
Posts: 15557 | Location: Virginia | Registered: June 02, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Get on the fifty!
Picture of Andyb
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by argolfer:
Any other 9mm subguns that you're considering? Do you plan to complete the trifecta with an MP5 SD?

What suppressor do you use on them?

That full-sized MP5 and UZI are killing me! Do you recommend the Vector UZI then? Any others to consider?

Thanks again for the write-up Smile


I've come close a few times to an SD but every time I shoot the others suppressed it scratches the itch. Currently I use my Gemtech Multimount on all of them. Waiting on a few AAC cans and a Omega 9k to be out of jail.

IMI also imported semi UZI's, but they carry a premium as expected. The Vector's are good to go IMO but if you ever did have an issue that have a good CS dept. Had a problem with the cocking tube weld on a V53p (HK53) and they returned it better than before.

The Omega line of MP5's is another one to look at. They have them at Atlantic Firearms.


Zoom, very cool. I would still SBR it Razz




When in doubt, pinky out.
 
Posts: 2695 | Location: Oklahoma | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Shackelford
posted Hide Post
For some reason, I kinda want a P26. It fits a good size niche, and is a heck of a lot cheaper than the APC9. According to the specs, it is a good pound and a half lighter than my MPX, and I like a gun slightly longer than the TP9-- looking at that gun I just envision putting a hole in my left hand.

Can you confirm that the P26 uses AR triggers? A quick look around the web, and I don't see any other confirmation. I also can't seem to find the P26 on B&T's website.
 
Posts: 621 | Location: Volunteer | Registered: January 16, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10  
 

SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  Mason's Rifle Room    So you want a 9mm "Subgun"?

© SIGforum 2017