|The Unknown |
I don't have nearly the time behind these as some members here, but having owned one, and shot another quite a bit, I will say from my experience, this video is pretty much on the mark.
My rifle was a post-Divine, pre-Genesco 00 serial receiver. I posted about it here, and discussed it some with Arc back when I bought it. It was originally in the brown fiberglass stock and was an exceptionally good shooter. I am not any kind of marksman or sharp shooter, but I was able to hold decent groups at 100 yards with irons (I never have shot one of these rifles with an optic mounted). It was everything I'd been told about, and other than screwing it up a bit with an ill-advised wood stock, I enjoyed every bit of ownership of that gun.
The second rifle I shot was a much newer production (2015-ish) standard M1A in the black polymer stock. The newer gun was slick in the action, but felt cheap in every other respect. The sights weren't as crisp, the trigger group/housing had lots of flashing and seemed very porous, and that black plastic stock was an absolute piece of crap. Aside from having all the controls in the exact same places, they felt like they weren't even the same gun, like the difference between a well tuned Colt 1911 vs a stock Rock Island 1911.
I think even the modern versions are decent for what they are, but if you've shot other more modern 308 rifles (SCAR/AR-10) they aren't going to wow you with their performance. I would say they are a more equivalent performer to a CETME or PTR-91 - decent, capable, and well loved by their owners, but nothing that's going to blow you away with performance far and away above it's price tag.
Which brings me to my final point. If these were $750 rifles, I'm not sure we're having this discussion. But, the fact is they're about twice that amount, and a tag like that comes with expectations. Rather the modern production M1A meets those expectations is up to the individual buyer, but I'd put it like this: If I could buy back my old M1A, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Even at the inflated price I got out of it back then. However, if I were limited to buying a new production version, I'd much rather spend that same money on a well built AR-10 variant or a PTR or HK 91.
Now if it's an M1A that member benny built - that's a whole nuther ball game! But I don't have the horsepower to play in that league anyway.
|Yeah, that M14 video guy...|
HA HA HA! Welcome to the battle rifle! Quite the learning curve, eh?
Thanks for the plug, bionic.
Owner, TonyBen, LLC, Type-01 FFL
www.tonybenm14.com (Site under construction).
What's your opinion on what we see in that video, benny?
|Yeah, that M14 video guy...|
Here’s what I posted in their comments section.
Man, that was fun to watch! I'll admit, your videos are a lot more entertaining than mine. When I test an M14 for accuracy, I only use a solid bench with front and rear sand bags. I use a Bassett scope mount or a Sadlak scope mount and I always us a Bradley adjustable cheek rest. There's a learning curve to shooting M14's/M1A's and it will make you a better shooter. Shooting an AR will make you shoot better, but it won't make you a better shooter.
AR's have allowed shooters to become sloppy in their technique and still shoot well. In my experience, good shooters who transition from M14's and M1 Garands to AR's do very, very well. Not always true going the other way.
I've also noticed that if I vary the stock pressure into my shoulder, that will open up the groups. For more consistent groups, you must hold the stock firmly in the shoulder pocket every time. When shooting iron sights, touch the tip of your nose to the first joint of your thumb and your cheek bone to the base of your thumb every time. This will ensure that your head is in the same place every time from shot-to-shot. Proper trigger control is essential.
I've probably built over 60 of these rifles and very few of them shoot over 2 MOA, but I'm a custom builder.
As for the SOCOM, 2 MOA is about right. I'm working on one right now and I'm still learning how to make them shoot well. From what I've seen, there's no suitable off the shelf ammo that works we'll with the SOCOM. I'm having good luck with moderate velocity 155 grain loads and moderate velocity 168 grain loads. I'm still working on the 125 and 130 grain loads.
NEVER EVER EVER shoot anything over 180 grains in an M14/M1A unless you have a modified gas system!!!! You can/will damage the operating rod!
Email me at email@example.com if you need any advice on the M14/M1A.
Owner, TonyBen, LLC, Type-01 FFL
www.tonybenm14.com (Site under construction).
I would like to add to Benny’s remarks to include, that you must understand that a military battle rifle was only held to a 4MOA to pass its initial testing....meaning they were never designed to be tack drivers, although a NM rifle should have all the tweaking done to it to make it more accurate.
I shot a NM M14 that was made by the gurus at the Navy’s SARF (small arms repair facility) in Crane ID. Those guys know how to make a rifle. And any rifle issued was a 1MOA rifle. But the standard rifle was still a 4MOA rifle.
"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein, Starship Troopers
|fugitive from reality|
I have trigger time behind M-14's, and have an older SA M1A that was assembeled from an H&R M14 parts kit. That being said I agree with everything Benny said. As a battle rifle the M14 isn't all that difficult to shoot or to qualify with. But to shoot it up to match grade levels you need to be very sound in your technique. The guys in that video obviously weren't, and it showed.
'I'm pretty fly for a white guy'.
I looked at their web site and not to my surprise I saw that almost any rifle they were shooting had optics on it. While am not a national class Service Rifle shooter in anything except a day dream I do have enough experience with shooting Irons to know it takes routine consistent Practice. That doesn't happen when you shoot with optics. It's why the only rifle I own that has a scope on it is my Shilen Barrel equipped precision AR, all the rest have Irons.
I've recently taken up shooting the Shotgun sports and have come to understand how critical stock fit can be for good accurate shooting. Visit a shotgun range sometime and you'll see shooters carrying guns that appear to have half a robot mounted to the back of the receiver because hardcore shooters looking to make AAA will spare no expense on having the absolutely perfect fit.
So, I won't fault the M1A's here for poor accuracy, that falls at the feet of the shooter. However I would never expect the M1A or Garand to to be sub MOA rifles, these are Service Rifles and anyone who thinks a M1A would shoot sub MOA is dreaming. IMO getting 2 MOA is about the best you should expect and if it shoots better than this you just got lucky with a well bedded barrel. If it has a wood stock enjoy that accuracy quickly because as soon as the humidity changes that will change.
I've stopped counting.
|You have cow?|
I lift cow!
A few things from my point of view.
I've never gotten a Socom to shoot 2moa. 2 different ones. Wasn't happening. That's with 15X scope, rested, and 4-5 different match rounds. So no surprise there.
NM gun should shoot 1.5 from the factory at 100 yards. That's not crazy and it seemed to happen here with optics. I don't have too much confidence in his or his buddy's ability to shoot irons for accuracy if they aren't used to the M14, especially with Prvi 145,180, or PMC. Even then shooting 5 shots into an inch out of a battle rifle with irons aint exactly a walk in the park.
I could also believe whatever is coming out of SA these days could be rushed out and maybe not what it used to be. But given the chance, they had the rifle do 1.5 inches at 100 yards scoped. They claim 1.25 so if that's true it seems pretty solid.
Ammo wise, I heard Prvi 145s and 180s? PMC? Then FGMM. The group he printed with FGMM and a scope from the NM looks right to me. PMC and PRVI 145-147 are just like M80. And that aint gonna shoot MOA outta any M14 generally speaking. So I don't see the problem from that standpoint.
From the - this rifle is $2500 (MSRP) and best it does is 1.5 inches at 100 standpoint, I get the gripe. But that just shows me a guy who hasn't been down the road before. The M14 isn't some mysterious calamity. It's over 50 years old and what it can and can't do are pretty well established. Even Springfield Armory guns. If their NM is shooting what looked like 6-8 inches from the factory it's cause SA missed something.
You can build up an M14 to shoot MOA, so if that's what you're after its not hard to get. It requires someone who knows what they're doing and quality parts. It's not an AR. The SA Supermatch and M21s generally from the past showed me MOA performance. NM is one Ive seen less of but I'd assume they can shoot just like the one on this video ended up doing, provided proper ammo, and trigger squeeze.
I joined the Navy in 1984 when I was 17 and carried the M14 on watch and call outs and truly loved that rifle. Our MARDET was just issued new M16a2's at the time and in my opinion, they fid not hold a candle to the M14.
I sold my Scout and bought a 1991 made M1A from a buddy that was pristine. It was a "Special Build".? Model and is mostly GI parts and it included a Springfield 4-14X56 scope and a early custom steel mount. The gun has a beautiful walnut stock that is bedded. It is an awesome gun, shoots great and reminds me of my teenage navy days.
That said, I now own at least 7 different AR rifles and many more rifles that shoot way better and maybe more suitable for certain things. But I will never get rid of my M1A.
2 months after buying the M1A, my friend died. For what he sold me the gun for, I could make money on it, but it will never be sold. At least by me... My boy that was a Marine likes it and has put his name on it when the time comes to pass them down.
Browning Buckmark Target, Colt Junior, Colt .22 Target Model, Colt .22 New Frontier, Colt Cowboy .45 LC, Colt Trooper, Colt Cobra, Colt Gov't Model, Colt Combat Elite, Colt Competition Model, CZ Scorpion EVO, CZ-75 TSO, H&k P30L, S&W 625(.45 LC), S&W 642, P290RS, Beretta 96, Glock 21, Ruger Blackhawk 45 LC
Well..... I think the host is some kind of millennial fairy-boy who mistakes beard growing and grooming for some kind of manly achievement.
"We're not the best shots". No shit! I would have never guessed by looking at your crap field-firing positions and your so-called "bench rest" technique. (Or lack thereof.) As stated, his glorious beard getting snagged and that brutal metal buttplate didn't help.
I personally don't think the M14 was that great a military rifle, but that has more to do with advances in small arms technology at the time than with the rifle itself. My recent Scout wasn't a bad shooter, but it didn't have the "quality" of my circa-1991 Supermatch, mostly due to the use of commercial parts in lieu of milspec parts. The Supermatch is 1.5 MOA with my regular handload of AA2520 and a Sierra 168 grain MK.
Of course, I never used it for clanging metal torso silhouettes at 25 meters; I actually competed in Service Rifle and learned to sling-up. Maybe it wouldn't do as well if I wore a tank top.
Mesabi - you put my thoughts about that video into better words than I could.
Also agree about using a sling. If you're going to try and wring out the best group at 200 yds., wouldn't proper use of a sling be more likely to do so than the technique (sic) dude and his friends were using in the video? Rhetorical question, of course.
I own a Devine TX NM and with tailored loads it will constantly hold 1.5 moa 5 shot groups at 100 yards. A few years ago a bought a SOCOM 2. What a piece of crap. The chamber looked like it was bored out by Bucky Beaver and the gun would not eject any ammunition I tried. Lake City, FGMM and my tailored hand loads. The stock with the bulky hand guard was a disaster. I had to send it back 2X to get something that resembled a decent chamber and bore.Even then it only shot patterns not groups. Traded the gun in to a dealer at a substantial loss. NEVER AGAIN.
watch the last 2 minutes and you will hear enough to not consider them a valid source of information. Wow was that bad. How would they review an M1?
Sorry, this guy is a dolt, even before he began speaking in the third person, but that sealed the deal.
Frankly, I'm not sure he's got a lot of experience with .30 caliber rifles at all, or control of a two stage trigger, or how to hold a rifle properly, and no sling ....
The assessment that AR-15s are easy to shoot and those shooters don't transition well to battle rifles is accurate. Many things about the AR-15 contribute to its inherent accuracy. The typical M14 isn't going to be as accurate, but are we killing men or shooting bullseyes?
I think there is valuable content out there on youtube, but this falls into the category of superficial trash. There are some nuggets in there, like the observation that the SOCOM irons are very thick and that is a hindrance, this is true, and it contributes to the poor accuracy many experience. But that is a nugget you have to pick out of a turd of a video. Most of it is soyboy whining.
Talking in the third person and behaving like the rifle is making him crave some Midol and a Sitz bath is insufferable and disingenuous.
"Like a bitter weed, I'm a bad seed"- Johnny Cash
"I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel." - Pee Wee Herman
Rode hard, put away wet. RIP JHM
"You're a junkyard dog." - Lupe Flores. RIP
Holy crap, kid-
Learn to shoot.
Because you have a long beard doesn't make you a man.
Get some man hands, then come back and talk to us.
He was right in the beginning of the video-
"I fired about 600 rounds through it like an asshole in a tank top..."
What he needs is a nice lesson on how to shoot.
Prone, kneeling and standing. Front sight & trigger control, and how to use a sling.
Then he needs a lesson on how to handle other people's guns. I beat the hell out of MY GUNS, but they're MINE! I'll be damned if I'm going to toss YOUR GUN over rocks and scratch up your wood!
Here's the source-
"When its time to shoot, shoot. Dont talk!"
“What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.” —Author Tom Clancy
That video was an effort to watch to the end. Those millennial whining youtube goons are more worried about praising their beards than doing an informative review.
I don't have any direct experience with SA M1A's personally, but a few of the guys shooting NRA High Power at my clubs love theirs, and from their scores I'd assume the guns are good to go.
I do have some time with the Garand, and my personal rifle shoots a hell of a lot better than those guys did in the video.
My 1943 SA Garand has a .062 NM front sight,a Criterion replacement barrel, and a replacement stock, other than that it's 1943 GI (BlueSky we rebuilt).
The rifle 2 weeks ago shot 100yd 3" to 4" groups off a pack covered with a towel. The target was one of those 18" Shoot-N-C and whatever size the center red bull is (guessing 3") all the shots were in it... Including 4 or 5 clips worth from my buddies 17yr old daughter.
She LOVED that rifle and she hammered the 200yd 12"x18" gong (it's the pink thing at 200 in the pic. She didn't complain about the metal cheesegrater either, maybe she can give those tools some pointers.
This was using plain jane American Eagle 150gr FMJ.
My inner Gunnery Sergeant Hartman imagined them parading round and round the squad bay when they repeatedly kept saying "their guns". Rifles.
|Hop head |
excellent post Benny,
I've only built a couple dozen, and own 2,
one thing I learned early on, and was reinforced by some Service Rifle shooters I know, (both went Distinguished on the M14) was to keep the elbow up, and squeeze that stock
works for me,
working in the business, I see a lot of young guys grab a M1 or M1A and hold it like an AR,,
doesn't work that way
Good Lord THAT was painful to watch.
He WAS correct though about his initial "Asshole in a tank top" comment. I agree with him 110%.
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