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Picture of 3/4Flap
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by cas:
quote:
Originally posted by 3/4Flap:

A 400 grain .45 bullet at 1000 is often going to show zero expansion...


Do much handgun hunting? Zero expansion is what many people are after. Break em down.


Well, actually, not much handgun hunting per se other than a bear with a .44 Magnum and many varmints, dogs and coyotes with a large number of handgun calibers. But you have me thinking. I have used the following handgun calibers for shooting butcher stock ranging from 40 lb goats to 1200 pound steers, with many dozens of sheep in the 70-250 pound range; .22LR, 7.62x25, .38 Special, 9x19, .357 SIG, .45 ACP, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt and .41 Magnum. Regarding bear and aside from the .44 Magnum I used, I have killed them with the 7.62x54R, .303 British, 9.3x57, 9.3x62, .45-70, .30-30 and .348 Winchester. I've killed deer with the 7.62x39, 6.5x55, 7x57, .348 Winchester, .300 Savage, .308 Win, .264 Win Mag, .375 H&H Mag, .30-06, 9.3x57, 9.3x62, .45-70, and elk with the 7x57, 6.5x55, 9.3x57, .375 H&H Mag, .264 Win Mag. I've shot African plains game with the .375 H&H and monkeys with the .30-30 and 12 bore shotgun. And coyotes and other varmints with a mess of rifle calibers and the 12 gauge slug. In addition, I've tested hundreds of bullet designs and calibers on a variety of media including carcasses, steer skulls, steel plate, wood of all stripes, dimensions and thicknesses, housing construction materials, sandbags, a water/plywood testing medium we worked up and helmets and just all sorts of other stuff including an old house I shot up in testing the 12 bore shotgun with a variety of loads. With butcher stock and game, I've taken the extra time to trace wound channels in order to get an idea of what works and what doesn't, and why.

Bullet shape {and whether it opens up} makes a big difference in the performance of any caliber/cartridge, but many round nosed or semi-round nosed {w/ small meplat} bullets in the .45-70 are poor killers compared to pretty much any of the standard deer calibers. Even sizable flat-nosed bullets do not always perform as one might think if one is attracted to the "big, slow, bullet" school of thought as I once was. Especially if the game is stuff of the average whitetail size where .45 cal holes punched broadside and at low velocity are absolutely no guarantee of a quick kill. So what I said above isn't just based on a guess. In addition, many old writers of the turn of the last century wrote of the exact same experience, experience that encouraged the direction of game-killing cartridge design and bullet type since then till now.


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Posts: 4788 | Location: Idaho, USA | Registered: May 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Crusty old
curmudgeon
Picture of Jimbo54
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^^^^^^
This is one of the best posts in a thread that required experience and expertise to answer a question about caliber vs critter in any forum I've ever been been a part of, bar none.

I applaud you 3/4Flap.

Jim


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"If you can't be a good example, then you'll have to be a horrible warning" -Catherine Aird
 
Posts: 5946 | Location: The right side of Washington State | Registered: September 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Res ipsa loquitur
Picture of BB61
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 3/4Flap:
quote:
Originally posted by cas:
quote:
Originally posted by 3/4Flap:

A 400 grain .45 bullet at 1000 is often going to show zero expansion...


Do much handgun hunting? Zero expansion is what many people are after. Break em down.


Well, actually, not much handgun hunting per se other than a bear with a .44 Magnum and many varmints, dogs and coyotes with a large number of handgun calibers. But you have me thinking. I have used the following handgun calibers for shooting butcher stock ranging from 40 lb goats to 1200 pound steers, with many dozens of sheep in the 70-250 pound range; .22LR, 7.62x25, .38 Special, 9x19, .357 SIG, .45 ACP, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt and .41 Magnum. Regarding bear and aside from the .44 Magnum I used, I have killed them with the 7.62x54R, .303 British, 9.3x57, 9.3x62, .45-70, .30-30 and .348 Winchester. I've killed deer with the 7.62x39, 6.5x55, 7x57, .348 Winchester, .300 Savage, .308 Win, .264 Win Mag, .375 H&H Mag, .30-06, 9.3x57, 9.3x62, .45-70, and elk with the 7x57, 6.5x55, 9.3x57, .375 H&H Mag, .264 Win Mag. I've shot African plains game with the .375 H&H and monkeys with the .30-30 and 12 bore shotgun. And coyotes and other varmints with a mess of rifle calibers and the 12 gauge slug. In addition, I've tested hundreds of bullet designs and calibers on a variety of media including carcasses, steer skulls, steel plate, wood of all stripes, dimensions and thicknesses, housing construction materials, sandbags, a water/plywood testing medium we worked up and helmets and just all sorts of other stuff including an old house I shot up in testing the 12 bore shotgun with a variety of loads. With butcher stock and game, I've taken the extra time to trace wound channels in order to get an idea of what works and what doesn't, and why.

Bullet shape {and whether it opens up} makes a big difference in the performance of any caliber/cartridge, but many round nosed or semi-round nosed {w/ small meplat} bullets in the .45-70 are poor killers compared to pretty much any of the standard deer calibers. Even sizable flat-nosed bullets do not always perform as one might think if one is attracted to the "big, slow, bullet" school of thought as I once was. Especially if the game is stuff of the average whitetail size where .45 cal holes punched broadside and at low velocity are absolutely no guarantee of a quick kill. So what I said above isn't just based on a guess. In addition, many old writers of the turn of the last century wrote of the exact same experience, experience that encouraged the direction of game-killing cartridge design and bullet type since then till now.


Question regarding your testing and experience. Were you looking at shot placement with solid bullets vs. the placement for expanding rounds? I’ve always been taught and read that solid bullets are utilized differently (shoulder shots for example) vs. lung/heart shots with an expanding round.


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Posts: 9620 | Registered: October 13, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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