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Picture of fpuhan
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quote:
Originally posted by matthew03:
This may be your only chance to purchase an AR legally in Virginia. I would recommend something mid length gas in 16" Bbl, free floated. High QC because parts may also be an issue.

BCM is a nice place to look.


There are two brands not mentioned here that I'm looking at very closely, based on recommendations by LEOs I know, and my son-in-law, who would likely inherit whatever I have/get:

I'm specifically looking at 5.56 (if I can add WYLDE with little or no cost, I'd probably do that, but 5.56x45 NATO would be my preferred round).

Geissele is known for probably making the best triggers available. My SIL highly recommends them.




You can't truly call yourself "peaceful" unless you are capable of great violence. If you're not capable of great violence, you're not peaceful, you're harmless.

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Posts: 2857 | Location: Peoples Republic of North Virginia | Registered: December 04, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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If you are bumping up in quality from entry / budget models, I would look at these.

BCM
Sionics
Centurion
Geissele
Colt (if you can find one)
LMT
SOLGW

But in the end they are all DI AR-15s; nothing is rocket science and all should be reliable - it's only accuracy, potential longevity, and premium features (buffer setup, barrel profile, rail type, etc) that set them apart.
 
Posts: 45798 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
But in the end they are all DI AR-15s; nothing is rocket science and all should be reliable - it's only accuracy, potential longevity, and premium features (buffer setup, barrel profile, rail type, etc) that set them apart.

Bingo

quote:
Originally posted by fpuhan:
I'm specifically looking at 5.56 (if I can add WYLDE with little or no cost, I'd probably do that, but 5.56x45 NATO would be my preferred round).

I have AR15s chambered in 223 match, wylde, and 556 nato. The 223 match barrel is the most accurate, followed by the wylde, followed by the 556 nato.

I buy and shoot only 223 ammo anymore, and all of my ammo is manufactured -- no hand loading. Even in the 556 chambers, comparable 223 ammo shoots more accurately for me than comparable 556 ammo. Meaning same bullet, same manufacturer -- just labeled as 223 vs. 556. I find that 556 ammo produces higher muzzle velocity in all comparable ammo types.
 
Posts: 6640 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of fpuhan
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
If you are bumping up in quality from entry / budget models, I would look at these.

BCM
Sionics
Centurion
Geissele
Colt (if you can find one)
LMT
SOLGW

But in the end they are all DI AR-15s; nothing is rocket science and all should be reliable - it's only accuracy, potential longevity, and premium features (buffer setup, barrel profile, rail type, etc) that set them apart.


Thanks! I've added BCM to my list of considered rifles.




You can't truly call yourself "peaceful" unless you are capable of great violence. If you're not capable of great violence, you're not peaceful, you're harmless.

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Posts: 2857 | Location: Peoples Republic of North Virginia | Registered: December 04, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:


But in the end they are all DI AR-15s; nothing is rocket science and all should be reliable - it's only accuracy, potential longevity, and premium features (buffer setup, barrel profile, rail type, etc) that set them apart.


this bears repeating / emphasis IMO.

it's very easy with ARs to chase 'features' which offer little perceived benefit to the vast majority of owners

----------------------------------------


Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
 
Posts: 8072 | Location: Florida | Registered: September 20, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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out the lights
Picture of David W
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I have been very happy with my BCM, if I was buying a full rifle it would be an easy choice for me.


David W.

Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud. -Sophocles
 
Posts: 3386 | Location: Winston Salem, N.C. | Registered: May 30, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of vthoky
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quote:
Originally posted by SIGfourme:
CT did the same thing several years ago, banned AR's. There was a huge run on AR's prior to the law going into effect. The safest "bet" would be to buy AR lowers--register the lower with the ability to have an AR in the future.
Buy a quality lower(s)--securing the option for a future build(s).


This is what I'm thinking... grab a couple of lowers now and have them on hand for later upper builds.

That said, the Ruger is a pretty nice rifle, IMO.




God bless America.
 
Posts: 10125 | Location: Hokie Nation! | Registered: July 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Rustpot
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quote:
Originally posted by fpuhan:
  • A Geissele Super Duty Rifle, 16". [/LIST]
    I'm specifically looking at 5.56 (if I can add WYLDE with little or no cost, I'd probably do that, but 5.56x45 NATO would be my preferred round).

    Geissele is known for probably making the best triggers available. My SIL highly recommends them.


  • I've been following the fallout from Geissele's Black Friday sale. People have started getting SD rifles and the feedback so far has not been universally stellar.

    Granted, a lot of the complaints are cosmetic (not unfounded on a new gun), or regarding shipping/wait times, but there have been reports of poor build quality, obvious defects missed, poor accuracy, and the like.

    I'm not saying Big G is junk, but they just expanded into barrels, BCGs, small parts, receivers, optics, coffee, knives, sights, and I'm probably missing something else. They're also months behind fulfilling current orders, and some thousands of emails backlogged, pulling engineers into customer service to help with the backlog (reported by a G employee in their facebook group to help address complaints).

    I'd give them a bit before trying to place an order. Let them work out the manufacturing kinks, and get their train back on track.
     
    Posts: 5859 | Location: Romeo, MI | Registered: January 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    Picture of Rustpot
    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by Sig209:
    quote:
    Originally posted by RHINOWSO:


    But in the end they are all DI AR-15s; nothing is rocket science and all should be reliable - it's only accuracy, potential longevity, and premium features (buffer setup, barrel profile, rail type, etc) that set them apart.


    this bears repeating / emphasis IMO.

    it's very easy with ARs to chase 'features' which offer little perceived benefit to the vast majority of owners

    ----------------------------------------


    It's also very easy to buy an AR that was spec'd and built by people that have no idea what they're doing. There is a real difference between companies like Ruger, S&W, Sig that have ARs as part of their product line and have assembly techs that don't necessarily have specific armorer training on an AR, and companies like BCM, SOLGW, Sionics that are dedicated AR companies who perform quality checks at every stage, do 100% inspection on BCGs, and continually test and develop/tune things like gas ports, barrel profiles, and help evolve the platform.

    Do you need lightweight billet, titanium, 2077 lithium, super rigidity, ultra-match, suppressor-optimized, whiz-bang features? No, not at all.

    Do you need a rifle that you're going to bet your life on to function every time? Don't buy "just a good" because it 100% is NOT.

    Case-in-point; I was helping my friend diagnose some issues with his rifle. I found the gas key bore out of spec and the chamber was short headspaced to the bolt. His Toolcraft BCG ("The Choice of the OEM" lasered right on the side of it) was way out of spec, and looked like they cut the gas key with a broken tool - every surface had chatter marks and blow outs on the edges. The fact that it made it to him in that condition means no one looked at it, and the person assembling it didn't seem to care enough to reject a visibly bad part.

    Does that mean Toolcraft is junk? No, it just means that OEM run was likely spec'd with little to no QC beyond "make it cheap".
     
    Posts: 5859 | Location: Romeo, MI | Registered: January 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    I'm not at all sure about the actual text of the VA law. But if its grandfathering like many others drafted I would skip buying a complete gun and get as many lowers as you can afford. BUT it depends on the actual text. For example the 1994 federal ban would not have been kind on that strategy.


    “So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
     
    Posts: 8919 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Gracie Allen is my
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    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by fpuhan:
    (if I can add WYLDE with little or no cost, I'd probably do that, but 5.56x45 NATO would be my preferred round).

    I've owned both Wylde and NATO chambered ARs with 16" barrels. For whatever my two cents are worth, the Wylde chamber really didn't seem to offer substantially better accuracy than the NATO chamber. It may make more sense to spend any extra money on different kinds of ammo in order to determine what your particular rifle shoots best.
     
    Posts: 24575 | Location: Deep in the heart of the brush country, and closing on that #&*%!?! roadrunner. Really. | Registered: February 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
    I've owned both Wylde and NATO chambered ARs with 16" barrels. For whatever my two cents are worth, the Wylde chamber really didn't seem to offer substantially better accuracy than the NATO chamber.

    There can be many factors in play, including:
    - barrel manufacturer
    - the precision in which the chamber was cut
    - ammo types
    - ergonomics of the comparison rifles -- such as buttstock and trigger
    - optics
    - target type and target distance
    - shooter

    I have 2 NATO 14.5" barrels, by Wilson Combat and LWRC. The LWRC offers good accuracy with 69 SMK bullet loads, but nothing else. The WC is new, with just slightly over 100 rounds now. The WC barrel shoots a variety of match ammo quite well-- it's head and shoulders above the LWRC in accuracy. I expect the Wilson's accuracy to improve a bit with additional rounds.

    I've had 3 Wilson 16" barrels, all chambered in NATO. Barrel #1 was respectable with many types of ammo from the get go. Its 1:9 twist meant that 75-77 grain ammo was a challenge in cold weather, but it shot really well with 55-69 grain loads. WC #2 was finicky at the start, which was mainly fixed by tweaking the barrel nut and remounting. It took a good 1k rounds to settle down, but it ended up shooting a little better than WC #1.

    WC #3 is the best of my three 16" barrels. It shoots virtually any quality ammo well, and it almost as good as my 18" WC -- even at distance.

    My Wilson 18" was a NATO chamber. Great barrel, accurate at short and long distances, liked many types of ammo. Its only downside was a tendency to develop a carbon ring just forward of the chamber.

    My current 18" is a Bartlein chambered in Wylde by Craddock Precision. It took a few hundred rounds to settle in, but now its accuracy at distance is great. More accurate than my WC 18" NATO.

    My 20" is a Krieger chambered in a tight 223 match. It's my most accurate barrel, with just about any match ammo, at just about any distance. Totally kick ass barrel.

    My 24" is a DSC truck-axle profile in NATO. It's pretty tolerant of ammo types, pretty good accuracy. Nice high muzzle velocity. Accuracy is likely on par with WC 16" #2 -- after #2 settled down.

    *****
    Comparing accuracy among various AR15 barrels can be a challenge, especially if group sizes vary much from one to the next. Accuracy at distances of 50-200 yards may be inconclusive. Accuracy at distances of 300-600 yards is an eye opener.

    If a person is not anal retentive about ammo accuracy, and does not intend to shoot match-grade ammo, then chamber type (NATO, Wylde, 223 match) probably doesn't matter much.
     
    Posts: 6640 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    Picture of fpuhan
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    I don't know why I thought researching/shopping for an AR would be any different than doing the same for a handgun. Smile

    In the end, I'll have to make my decision and my choice, but as they say, "getting there is half the fun."

    I am amazed at the variety and spectrum of products available. I do not have the tools, space or know-how to build my own, but this certainly seems to be one of the appeals of the AR platform. In fact, having only done a couple of weeks' research, I've come to the opinion that no matter how much the gun-grabbers try, they'll never actually be able to halt the production and distribution of rifles in this country. I am reminded of Prohibition: all that did was serve to put bootleggers into business and drive the economy underground. I venture to say that if the tyrants currently strangling Virginia get their way, all it would take is a drive across the state line to where one can buy uppers, lowers, BCGs, FSBs, handguards, buffer tubes, charging handles, etc. and bringing them all back. Perhaps not even in a single trip. Get what I'm saying?

    But I digress.

    While I still have in my vision the "basic" entry-level AR, like the Palmetto State Armory (PSA) Mid-Length 5.56 NATO 1/7 Nitride Lightweight M-LOK, or the Springfield Armory Saint, or the S&W M&P Sport, my focus has been a little higher up the ladder. Here's what has been recommended to me by either people I know, or by doing a lot of digging research:

    • The venerable Colt LE6920. They are available on GunBroker, even the "blue" rollmarked ones.
    • Geissele Super Duty 16. This is the one my son-in-law is recommending. He has a discount coupon he'll give me, which sweetens the deal. A lot!
    • Bravo Company Mfg. (BCM), either the M4 Mod 2 Carbine, or the RECCE-16 MCMR Carbine.
    • CMMG Resolute 200 MK4 or Resolute 300 MK4.
    • Sons of Liberty (just learned about them today from a guy who REALLY knows this stuff). Like many of these in the list, their guns are made to order; the complete rifles shown on their web sites are more eye candy than readily available. They have a variety of M4-types.
    • I also find strangely compelling the Midwest Industries MI GAUSA-P ASDW clone, mostly because of its Cry Havoc Quick Release Barrel system.


    I'm still open to suggestions, as I'm completely fascinated by the different parts, how they fit and work together, and the options available.




    You can't truly call yourself "peaceful" unless you are capable of great violence. If you're not capable of great violence, you're not peaceful, you're harmless.

    NRA Benefactor/Patriot Member
     
    Posts: 2857 | Location: Peoples Republic of North Virginia | Registered: December 04, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    hello darkness
    my old friend
    Picture of gw3971
    posted Hide Post
    Rock River and BCM. Mid-length gas system.
     
    Posts: 6740 | Location: West Jordan, Utah | Registered: June 19, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    Picture of Bob RI
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    BCM mid length have treated me well.
     
    Posts: 4289 | Location: NH | Registered: January 22, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    Get a 16” mid length BCM and 3 stripped lowers from PSA.




    “People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik

    The world's a dangerous place, we can help! http://portlandfirearmtraining.com/
     
    Posts: 4768 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    Picture of Rustpot
    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by fpuhan:

  • The venerable Colt LE6920. They are available on GunBroker, even the "blue" rollmarked ones.
  • Geissele Super Duty 16. This is the one my son-in-law is recommending. He has a discount coupon he'll give me, which sweetens the deal. A lot!
  • Bravo Company Mfg. (BCM), either the M4 Mod 2 Carbine, or the RECCE-16 MCMR Carbine.
  • CMMG Resolute 200 MK4 or Resolute 300 MK4.
  • Sons of Liberty (just learned about them today from a guy who REALLY knows this stuff). Like many of these in the list, their guns are made to order; the complete rifles shown on their web sites are more eye candy than readily available. They have a variety of M4-types.
  • I also find strangely compelling the Midwest Industries MI GAUSA-P ASDW clone, mostly because of its Cry Havoc Quick Release Barrel system.[/LIST]


  • That's a great list. If you're looking at retro-chic the Brownell's Retro line is also getting really favorable reviews.

    I quite like my BCM uppers and components. The MCMR is a solid rail that is quite slim and compact without a lower "lug" for attachment that most rails have, to some degree. It's also a great profile and has a mounting slot on every facet, some companies only do the 3, 6, 9 o'clock mounting slots.

    I have two rifles from SOLGW and both are fantastic. They will take your call and discuss your needs, budget, and the owner gives out his cell phone number, and was handing out business cards at the recent VA 2A Rally. You're not wrong though, finding a rifle on the shelf is rare, and getting your rifle can take months. My first one was ordered in September, due to ship the first week of October, and I think my FFL got it a few days after Christmas.

    But; VA orders are being expedited.

    https://i.redd.it/53li6j3j12441.png


    Edit:
    Great article here on AR Build Junkie. The reviews are not paid for, they go over many brands mentioned here. They're only discussing uppers, so not exactly perfect, but worth consider.

    https://www.arbuildjunkie.com/...HKjGkUJU0iiLA6Lqm-SU

    This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rustpot,
     
    Posts: 5859 | Location: Romeo, MI | Registered: January 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Master of one hand
    pistol shooting
    Picture of Hamden106
    posted Hide Post
    https://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm

    I like them.



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    Posts: 5363 | Location: Duckburg, OR | Registered: September 01, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    Picture of fpuhan
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    A new wrinkle on this thread: AR "packages."

    I was checking out GunBroker and came across several pre-built AR packages. These feature rifles that are pretty basic, entry-level types, that have added items to round out the package. Things like bipods, slings, optics, locking cases, and so on. I realize concessions have to be made to put together a package that isn't priced out of this world, but if nothing else, they're fun to look at. For someone considering their first AR, would you suggest something like one of these? (Clicking on an image will take you to the listing).









    You can't truly call yourself "peaceful" unless you are capable of great violence. If you're not capable of great violence, you're not peaceful, you're harmless.

    NRA Benefactor/Patriot Member
     
    Posts: 2857 | Location: Peoples Republic of North Virginia | Registered: December 04, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by fpuhan:
    I was checking out GunBroker and came across several pre-built AR packages.
    For someone considering their first AR, would you suggest something like one of these?

    IIRC, direct links to Gunbroker auctions aren't appreciated on Sigforum. You may want to post sample pictures and product descriptions only, then kill the links.

    If a package includes the exact items you want, then maybe. But first you should price the individual items and determine the market value of the package.

    I wouldn't buy the packages. I recommend determining what you really want, prior to buying anything.
     
    Posts: 6640 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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