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SB Tactical Void Plug. Login/Join 
Member
Picture of Ken226
posted
For any interested, I designed a void plug for the SB Tactical PDW brace. It will fill the hole and prevent unwanted movement of the flap portions of the brace.

I've seen a version being sold online for $20.00, but didn't like the design much. This one is a little more minimalist in nature.

I have no idea how ATF views this as far as legality. I don't see any reason it should make an otherwise legal braced pistol into an illegal SBR, but their mindset is pretty alien to me anyway. Print and use at your own discretion/risk.

I posted the .STL file on thingiverse, free for Sigforum members who want to download and 3D print one, or have an online service print it for you.

It fits perfectly. Can be printed using PLA, ABS, TPU or whatever material you like.

The tread pattern on the back is a copy of the tire tread pattern from the Goodyear Duratracs on my Ram 4x4.



I'll post a link for the .stl in a few minutes, once it uploads to thingiverse.


Machine Shop
07/02
 
Posts: 1402 | Location: Top Left Corner | Registered: December 23, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Ken226
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Link for the .stl file:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3897791

Also, I have a lot of other designs posted there. Forum members are welcome to download and print any of them.

There are some pegboard holders for various Lee reloading items, calipers, a Nikon RangeX 4K black ARCA tripod mount, and a few other items. Just search my username and you should be able to browse me designs.


Machine Shop
07/02
 
Posts: 1402 | Location: Top Left Corner | Registered: December 23, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
posted Hide Post
Might count as a 'modification' with intent 'not to use the brace as designed'.
 
Posts: 43186 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Ken226
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Word is, the designer of the plug being sold online is waiting on a final letter from ATF, outlining their position on it.

For now, it's to the user, how much risk they want to take.

I registered my lower as an sbr years ago, but recently put on the sb brace. For my little .40 carbine, it's a non issue.


Machine Shop
07/02
 
Posts: 1402 | Location: Top Left Corner | Registered: December 23, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of CandyMan.45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ken226:
Word is, the designer of the plug being sold online is waiting on a final letter from ATF, outlining their position on it.


Got a feeling this Will be shot down by the ATF!

This falls into the realm of "Modification/redesign" of the brace may(will) reclassify it as a stock. ATF was very clear on braces that come with a velcro, that said velcro could not be removed! And here we're talking about closing up the gape that makes a brace a brace.

Pushing the boundaries and Too many letters to the man the last time was what took the whole shouldering thing away from us...
 
Posts: 1157 | Location: The Edge of Nowhere... | Registered: April 05, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by CandyMan.45:
Too many letters to the man


Yup. But some people will never learn and there’s nothing much the rest of us can do about it.

I was not aware of any ruling about removing the Velcro strap, but it could be argued that that wouldn’t prevent the device from being used as an arm brace. But filling the gap that makes it possible to position it around one’s arm—which is the whole supposed purpose of the brace? How obvious is that? I have found it impossible to guess how the ATF might rule on these questions, but it wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if someone is looking at the modification, laughing out loud, and saying to his co-workers, “Hey, guys. Come here and look at this idiot’s question. You know, it’s time to put an end to this nonsense for good. We’ll just ban these ‘braces’ and that will be that.”




Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-imposed nonage [immaturity]. Nonage is the inability to use one’s own understanding without another’s guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one’s own mind without another’s guidance.”
— Immanuel Kant
 
Posts: 40250 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Ken226
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This plug, and the other one, doesn't involve removing the Velcro strap. The strap has to stay, to secure the plug in place. It just fills the hole.

The recesses in the side of the plug, accomodate the strap where it passes through to the inside of the brace. The strap remains, and is still useable.


Machine Shop
07/02
 
Posts: 1402 | Location: Top Left Corner | Registered: December 23, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Savor the limelight
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I don't see a problem with making these or selling these. Using them on a braced, non-sbr pistol on the other hand I can see being a problem.

Filling the hole where your arm is supposed to go with something other than your arm serves what purpose other than to make shouldering the pistol easier?

That you are posting this in the rifle section instead of the pistol section tells me you know and understand this as well.
 
Posts: 5077 | Location: SWFL | Registered: October 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Ken226
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I have a FFL, SOT, a machine shop and have been manufacturing NFA items for resale for over a decade. Yes, I have some idea about what is and isn't legal.

In case you missed it in my first post, I'm not selling anything. I designed this, and posted the files online for anyone who wishes to use for free. I'm not here asking for legal advice, just making this available to forum members (free), for use on SBRs, or anything else they wish to use it for.

Anyone who wishes can 3d print it, for legal use on a registered SBR. It's intended to be used legally. It's use on a brace equipped pistol may or may not be legal, I don't know and neither do you. A pistol brace equipped with this plug can certainly still be used as a pistol. As there is no caselaw, nor anything written on it, your guessing as much as I am. Many braces don't even have a hole. They have a built-in plug. The lack of a hole doesn't make any of those illegal.

It's in the rifle room because if it's used in an obviously legal manner, such as on an sbr (short barreled rifle), the rifle room seems more appropriate than in the Sig Pistols room.


Or, they can put it on a brace equipped pistol and risk violating the law. That's up to the end user, I have nothing to say about it. The majority of braces have no hole whatsoever. They are legal.


Machine Shop
07/02
 
Posts: 1402 | Location: Top Left Corner | Registered: December 23, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by Ken226:
It just fills the hole.


Which was the point of my observation, nothing about the strap except for pointing out that I was not aware of any ATF ruling about the strap. If filling the hole makes it impossible to use the “brace” for extra stability when firing a handgun with one hand, then it seems pretty likely that it would not be acceptable for use with a handgun. And which, IMO, should be obvious to anyone without asking the ATF about it. But perhaps I am wrong, and that agency will say, “Sure, go ahead. No problem.”




Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-imposed nonage [immaturity]. Nonage is the inability to use one’s own understanding without another’s guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one’s own mind without another’s guidance.”
— Immanuel Kant
 
Posts: 40250 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Ken226
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Filling the hole just makes it work like every other brace on the market. Strap your arm alongside.

I suppose, if someone added the plug, and removed the strap both, there may be some obvious intent.

Even here on a pro-gun forum, some are so paranoid that they worry that adding a plug, which would make the pdw brace work like every other brace, might be a felony.

That explains why companies selling such an item wants a letter from ATF guaranteeing it's legality.


Machine Shop
07/02
 
Posts: 1402 | Location: Top Left Corner | Registered: December 23, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Purveyor of Death
and Destruction
Picture of walker77
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quote:
Even here on a pro-gun forum, some are so paranoid that they worry that adding a plug, which would make the pdw brace work like every other brace, might be a felony.



Roll Eyes
 
Posts: 6768 | Location: Raymore, Missouri | Registered: June 24, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Ken226
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quote:
Originally posted by walker77:
quote:
Even here on a pro-gun forum, some are so paranoid that they worry that adding a plug, which would make the pdw brace work like every other brace, might be a felony.



Roll Eyes


Excellent point. Well reasoned and articulate! I got nothing against that one!


Machine Shop
07/02
 
Posts: 1402 | Location: Top Left Corner | Registered: December 23, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ken226:
Filling the hole just makes it work like every other brace on the market. Strap your arm alongside.

I suppose, if someone added the plug, and removed the strap both, there may be some obvious intent.

Even here on a pro-gun forum, some are so paranoid that they worry that adding a plug, which would make the pdw brace work like every other brace, might be a felony.

That explains why companies selling such an item wants a letter from ATF guaranteeing it's legality.
Not paranoid, just interested in factual discussion. And if I choose to stray from the letter of some law, I'm not going to post about it on the internet.

Figured as an 07/02, you might be interested in the law - not because you have to agree with it, but because your customers might want to know that you've followed it.

But maybe you're some bubba in your mommas basement or a junior ATF man trying to start shit. Either way, just stick to the facts.
 
Posts: 43186 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
My hypocrisy goes only so far
Picture of GrumpyBiker
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A buddy of mine was in a motorcycle accident two months ago. I rode to the ER to take custody of the firearms he had on him.
I met the Highway Patrol in the ER & followed the officer out to the parking lot .
He opened the trunk and filled out the custody form.
The AR9 (colt stick mag style) has the Plug installed. No comment, no issues after it was inspected and turned over to me with his other guns & ammunition.

I’m not suggesting violating federal regulations is okay. But I am wondering how many have been charged for these type of things without any other charges.
In other words, not as an additional charge.





I’ve received a couple of these as gifts from friends. Mine still have their tags.




U.S.M.C.
VFW-8054
III%

"Never let a Wishbone grow where a Backbone should be "



 
Posts: 6191 | Location: Central,Ohio | Registered: December 28, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Ken226
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Sure, I can agree with that. Just stick to the facts.

It is a fact, that many of the other braces on the market don't have a void in the center. And do have letters from ATF attesting to their legality.

It's a fact that to use them as designed, the forearm is strapped alongside using the supplied Velcro strap.

It's is a fact that ATF has put in writing, that they believe this method complies with the NFA.

It's a fact that the plug, puts the pdw brace into a configuration that, that ATF has acknowledged in writing, with regard to other models, as being legal.

Which facts am I skipping or misrepresenting?

Keep in mind, that I never anywhere stated that this thing is legal to use on a pistol brace.

Just that it is likely, a non issue, and that potential users should exercise discretion.

As a matter of -fact-, I even pointed out that a letter has been submitted to ATF requesting their opinion on the legality of these, and that as of yet, there has been no clarification.

In a prior post,I also mentioned that it may be best to use it on registered SBRs, to avoid the appearance of impropriety. Did I not?

Do you believe that making this file available is inappropriate because it is possible, that someone could use it illegally? If so, I am willing to take it down.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Ken226,


Machine Shop
07/02
 
Posts: 1402 | Location: Top Left Corner | Registered: December 23, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Ken226
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Sorry Grumpy, I was replying to Rhino with the long winded post above.

To your point, I've never heard of a prosecution for such either, but obviously, noone wants to be the first.

I can understand guys being afraid of their own shadows with regard to some of the gun laws. There are gray areas a mile wide, with some very subjective terms, standing between obvious legality and a felony.

Sure, there's almost no chance that someone would be charged for having one of these things in their pistol, unless maybe they were standing on a pile of cocaine at the same time. This is more of an academic argument about the letter of the law, and our various comfort zones within that gray area.

I'm not suggest that anyone should put the plug in their pistol. Nor am I suggesting that they don't do it.

I'just pointing out that, as a matter of "fact", it hasn't been opined by the ATF, to be either legal or illegal yet.

There are plenty of braces on the market that are perfectly legal, and function in exactly the same manner as a plugged SB brace.

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And, as I mentioned previously, it is buyer beware. Modifying a brace MAY put the user at risk of violating a statute.

As my safe gets inspected, I personally only use modified braces on registered SBRs.


Machine Shop
07/02
 
Posts: 1402 | Location: Top Left Corner | Registered: December 23, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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