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In this age of everyone's opinion matters on the interwebs and there is a million ways to do things, in this case there is only one way and jljones has expressed it perfectly.

An AR-15 should always have it's safetly on regardless if it's 2 seconds or 2 decades.


Comparing Glocks to AR's is a bit silly and the decocker is there for a reason.


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Off finding Galt's Gulch
 
Posts: 448 | Registered: March 21, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
sick puppy
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after reading this thread I realized how little I dry-fire my rifles. Its not something i've consciously avoided, but apparently it's definitely something I am not in the practice of doing. Chief reason would be that its not necessary for disassembly like it is on a Glock or whatnot, and I don't dry-fire "practice" trigger time with rifles ever.


☣Biohazard☣
 
Posts: 6929 | Location: Alpine, Ut | Registered: February 17, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I define firearm storage as being in my basement safe. For me this is storage to keep the firearm safe from theft or damage. Given that I have a rotary dial mechanism to open my safe, I'm not getting into it in a split second. Self defense firearms are a different matter, as they are available for immediate use, and are located on my main floor.

I do not feel there is a universal, absolute, uber-bestest way for which all people must store firearms in a safe under this given scenario. Now how the gun owner treats firearms coming in and out of such a safe in such a scenario is important. I believe consistency is important, as is following firearm safety rules.

I store all my firearms in my safe empty chamber, bolt forward, hammer down, unloaded, mag out, safety off. This works for me. Maybe it doesn't work for others. I get that. But I always know the condition of firearms going in and out of my safe. Still, being anal retentive, I check every gun's condition coming out of the safe.

A contributing factor for this condition in my safe is the different types of firearms I own:
- AR-15s of course, as that's a primary discussion of this thread. Multiple calibers -- 223, 300BLK, 22lr.
- AR-10, just the 15's big brother. Similarly -- mag out, empty chamber, bolt forward, dry fired, safety off.
- Over/under shotguns. Empty chambers, dry fired, manual safety not engaged. I know competitors who at one time stored their O/Us with the hammers cocked. They don't anymore. Firing pin springs have weakened prematurely, causing misfires in big tournaments. The rule is to keep tension off the springs.

- Pump action shotgun. Empty chamber, slide forward, dry fired, safety not engaged.
- 1911s and Sig SAO pistols. Empty chamber, slid forward, hammer down (dry fired), mag out, safety not engaged.
- Sig DA/SA. Empty chamber, slide forward, hammer down (dry fired), mag out.

- Bolt action rifles. Empty chamber, bolt forward, dry fired, mag out, safety not engaged.
- Lever action rifles. Empty chamber, tube feed empty, dry fired, safety not engaged.
- Glocks. Empty chamber, slide forward, dry fired, mag out.

This works for me, for storage. YMMV
 
Posts: 5431 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigless in
Indiana
Picture of IndianaBoy
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quote:
Originally posted by sooma:
In this age of everyone's opinion matters on the interwebs and there is a million ways to do things, in this case there is only one way and jljones has expressed it perfectly.

An AR-15 should always have it's safetly on regardless if it's 2 seconds or 2 decades.


Comparing Glocks to AR's is a bit silly and the decocker is there for a reason.


Sorry... Decocker on a glock?
 
Posts: 13136 | Location: The Edge of the Ozarks | Registered: December 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by IndianaBoy:
quote:
Originally posted by sooma:
In this age of everyone's opinion matters on the interwebs and there is a million ways to do things, in this case there is only one way and jljones has expressed it perfectly.

An AR-15 should always have it's safetly on regardless if it's 2 seconds or 2 decades.

Comparing Glocks to AR's is a bit silly and the decocker is there for a reason.


Sorry... Decocker on a glock?

Jeane Dixon predicted a decocker on the Gen 7 Glock.
 
Posts: 5431 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Still waiting for jljones to stop by. Fritz your strategy is mine except possibly that I simply don't dry fire the rimfires.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 6963 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
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quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
Still waiting for jljones to stop by. Fritz your strategy is mine except possibly that I simply don't dry fire the rimfires.


Still waiting for me to stop by for what?


_______________________________________________________________________
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"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 31765 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Some comments as you have provide to all previously in this thread who have suggested that they store an AR with the manual safety not engaged. Fritz as usual has broadly given the universe.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 6963 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
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quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
Some comments as you have provide to all previously in this thread who have suggested that they store an AR with the manual safety not engaged. Fritz as usual has broadly given the universe.



I still have nothing more to add just because someone came along to agree with you. I find it to be unsafe, and under no condition would condone or recommend it. I’ve made that pretty clear and found no reason to beat a dead horse or just for the sake of arguing.


_______________________________________________________________________
www.opspectraining.com

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 31765 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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jljones. I edited my post to be more precise while you were responding which is not fair. I'm Sorry and I put it back to the version you responded to. But my detailed question is now repeated below. I'm interested to see how you translate your position on the AR to other gun operating systems. I'd asked if you thought the same about SAO guns previously but I didn't see any comments. But now fritz pretty much has the universe. So is it your position we store everything with a safety with it on? period. and anything else is unsafe as you suggest for an AR?...


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 6963 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
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Again, as I said many posts ago, you treat all firearms as if they were loaded. You don’t have two sets of rules, one for when you think guns are unloaded, and one set for when you do.

However I treat a gun when it is loaded is is exactly how I treat it when it is unloaded.


_______________________________________________________________________
www.opspectraining.com

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 31765 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigless in
Indiana
Picture of IndianaBoy
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Again, as I said many posts ago, you treat all firearms as if they were loaded. You don’t have two sets of rules, one for when you think guns are unloaded, and one set for when you do.

However I treat a gun when it is loaded is is exactly how I treat it when it is unloaded.



Keeping a gun hammer down, whether for storage or prior to usage, does not preclude proper firearms handling.

Misguided faith in a 'safety' provides no additional measure of real safety.


For a deer hunter with a 6.5 or 6.8 SPC AR who needs to cross a fence on the way to his deer stand, in the dark, on opening morning. Is a rifle cocked and on safe measurably safer than a rifle which he confirmed cleared and dry fired the evening before? Of course not, especially when he can confirm hammer down condition via non-rotation of his safety lever. This can be done silently, and in the dark.

Dogmatic faith in a 'safety' is misguided and should not preclude common sense.
 
Posts: 13136 | Location: The Edge of the Ozarks | Registered: December 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by IndianaBoy:
quote:
Originally posted by sooma:
In this age of everyone's opinion matters on the interwebs and there is a million ways to do things, in this case there is only one way and jljones has expressed it perfectly.

An AR-15 should always have it's safetly on regardless if it's 2 seconds or 2 decades.


Comparing Glocks to AR's is a bit silly and the decocker is there for a reason.


Sorry... Decocker on a glock?


quote:
When I am putting a sig into a range bag at the end of a range session, I don't decock it, I point it in a safe direction and drop the hammer. It is one more layer of safety that there was not an errant round that happened to make it into the chamber.


Wow, I think I've met the most tactical, most gun smartest person on the planet. Glocks don't have decockers? Who knew?

Yankee Marshall better look out.


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Posts: 448 | Registered: March 21, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by IndianaBoy:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Again, as I said many posts ago, you treat all firearms as if they were loaded. You don’t have two sets of rules, one for when you think guns are unloaded, and one set for when you do.

However I treat a gun when it is loaded is is exactly how I treat it when it is unloaded.


Keeping a gun hammer down, whether for storage or prior to usage, does not preclude proper firearms handling.

Misguided faith in a 'safety' provides no additional measure of real safety.


For a deer hunter with a 6.5 or 6.8 SPC AR who needs to cross a fence on the way to his deer stand, in the dark, on opening morning. Is a rifle cocked and on safe measurably safer than a rifle which he confirmed cleared and dry fired the evening before? Of course not, especially when he can confirm hammer down condition via non-rotation of his safety lever. This can be done silently, and in the dark.

Dogmatic faith in a 'safety' is misguided and should not preclude common sense.


It really is a pleasure reading all of your what ifs. Truly. Roll Eyes


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Posts: 448 | Registered: March 21, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sooma:
quote:
Originally posted by IndianaBoy:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Again, as I said many posts ago, you treat all firearms as if they were loaded. You don’t have two sets of rules, one for when you think guns are unloaded, and one set for when you do.

However I treat a gun when it is loaded is is exactly how I treat it when it is unloaded.


Keeping a gun hammer down, whether for storage or prior to usage, does not preclude proper firearms handling.

Misguided faith in a 'safety' provides no additional measure of real safety.


For a deer hunter with a 6.5 or 6.8 SPC AR who needs to cross a fence on the way to his deer stand, in the dark, on opening morning. Is a rifle cocked and on safe measurably safer than a rifle which he confirmed cleared and dry fired the evening before? Of course not, especially when he can confirm hammer down condition via non-rotation of his safety lever. This can be done silently, and in the dark.

Dogmatic faith in a 'safety' is misguided and should not preclude common sense.


It really is a pleasure reading all of your what ifs. Truly. Roll Eyes


And exactly why I left this thread. When you have people that see nothing wrong with defeating a manufacturers safety mechanism, and use "common sense" in the same post, the excuses, hypotheticals, rolls eyes, and what ifs flow like wine. You don't have to make excuses and what ifs if you just use the rifle like the manufacturer designed it. Instead of the idea that you're going defeat the mechanical safety, and then you're going to do all of the other safety rules super dooper to make up for not using the safety.

Especially when it comes to hokey unsafe rituals that are not proven to do a THING to improve the rifles sustainability.

I even get the folks like Fritz who pretty much just say "Eh, this is what I do, others do other stuff". I can respect that. He isn't desperately trying to convince everyone else that he is right. No rolls eyes. No hypothetical. My opinion doesn't change a bit of the technique, but I get it.


_______________________________________________________________________
www.opspectraining.com

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 31765 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by sooma:
quote:
Originally posted by IndianaBoy:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Again, as I said many posts ago, you treat all firearms as if they were loaded. You don’t have two sets of rules, one for when you think guns are unloaded, and one set for when you do.

However I treat a gun when it is loaded is is exactly how I treat it when it is unloaded.


Keeping a gun hammer down, whether for storage or prior to usage, does not preclude proper firearms handling.

Misguided faith in a 'safety' provides no additional measure of real safety.


For a deer hunter with a 6.5 or 6.8 SPC AR who needs to cross a fence on the way to his deer stand, in the dark, on opening morning. Is a rifle cocked and on safe measurably safer than a rifle which he confirmed cleared and dry fired the evening before? Of course not, especially when he can confirm hammer down condition via non-rotation of his safety lever. This can be done silently, and in the dark.

Dogmatic faith in a 'safety' is misguided and should not preclude common sense.


It really is a pleasure reading all of your what ifs. Truly. Roll Eyes


And exactly why I left this thread. When you have people that see nothing wrong with defeating a manufacturers safety mechanism, and use "common sense" in the same post, the excuses and what ifs flow like wine. You don't have to make excuses and what ifs if you just use the rifle like the manufacturer designed it. Instead of the idea that you're going defeat the mechanical safety, and then you're going to do all of the other safety rules super dooper to make up for not using the safety.

Especially when it comes to hokey unsafe rituals that are not proven to do a THING to improve the rifles sustainability.

Lol, game set and match Jones.

Of course they’ll bring their reams of data backing up their case... they’ll be along soon, it shouldn’t be too long... Wink
 
Posts: 39045 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Wait, what?
Picture of gearhounds
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Personally, I don't get why this is confusing to some.

If the chamber is empty, hammer down, the safety is off. If the chamber is empty, hammer back, safety on you KNOW exactly that the weapon is safe. There is no guess work, regardless of your surety that you were the last person to handle the weapon.

If you need the weapon suddenly and have to insert a magazine and charge the weapon, it now has a round in the chamber. If the safety is already engaged, the chance of a stress induced ND is basically removed from the equation, should an instantaneous shot not be required. I have never trained to charge a weapon, apply the safety, then look to engage. I have trained to look to engage, thumb on the safety.

As jljones said, the safety is on the weapon for a very good reason. The chance of an AD or ND exists under any scenario where the safety is not engaged. Barring a broken gun, the chance of of the same is approximately zero.




Proudly deplorable
 
Posts: 8448 | Location: Martinsburg WV | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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The only time I dry fire a weapon and leave it that way is when required by competition rules.

For all the reasons Jones and Gearhounds mentions.

Obviously everyone is free to do as they see fit and attitudes are unlikely to change, which doesn't bother me a bit.
 
Posts: 39045 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Especially when it comes to hokey unsafe rituals that are not proven to do a THING to improve the rifles sustainability.


"Hokey rituals and ancient weapons are no match for a good safety at your side, kid."



(Big Grin)
 
Posts: 21017 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I also take the bolt out of my rem700 .308, but not for safety or metallurgical reasons, just to get make room in the safe Eek
 
Posts: 17375 | Registered: August 12, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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