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Picture of Ambush
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quote:
How is this gun better than an MP5?


Cost, as stated above a career move or perhaps a brother-in-law...


DE OPPRESSO LIBER

If the enemy is in range, so are you...
 
Posts: 131 | Location: Arizona Territory  | Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
addicted to trailing-throttle oversteer
Picture of soggy_spinout
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quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
quote:
What is your prediction?

5 years of money and evaluation.

Nothing adopted or bought.

Waste of time and money.

Sounds about right to me. Besides, the Army won't have any money to spend on a new subgun after the Navy siphons any and all funds need to fix all of the headaches and problems with their shiny new carrier.
 
Posts: 8295 | Location: Drippin' wet | Registered: April 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I'm not laughing
WITH you
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Well, I love my CZ's


Photo Nov 18, 11 04 27 AM by Dave Steier, on Flickr




Photo Jun 08, 10 26 20 AM by Dave Steier, on Flickr




Rolan Kraps
SASS Regulator
Gainesville, Georgia.
NRA Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Instructor - Pistol / Personal Protection Inside the Home
 
Posts: 22119 | Location: Gainesville, GA | Registered: October 11, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Move Up or
Move Over
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1) how long has it been since a senior officer was killed by enemy action? The up close and personal kind, not killed on a ship that got blown up

2) how many senior officers have a legitimate need for a full time protective detail?

3) everything I'm seeing about our future war fighting capability indicates ever increasing useage of autonomous systems

4) I wish the requirement included at least an option for 357 sig
 
Posts: 4214 | Location: middle Tennessee | Registered: October 28, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Rented a scorpion recently and it was a DREAM to shoot.
 
Posts: 2612 | Registered: January 27, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by mark_a:
1) how long has it been since a senior officer was killed by enemy action? The up close and personal kind, not killed on a ship that got blown up

2) how many senior officers have a legitimate need for a full time protective detail?

3) everything I'm seeing about our future war fighting capability indicates ever increasing useage of autonomous systems

4) I wish the requirement included at least an option for 357 sig

Actually lots of command staff were in harms way in Iraq and Afghanistan to include a general officer killed.
Having said that,would be much more sensible to develop a sub gun size platform utilizing 5.56 and mag commonality with the m16/m4 series
 
Posts: 2283 | Location: Finally free in AZ! | Registered: February 14, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Killer Instincts
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For urban operations, how about a 300 BLK shorty? Fucking 9mm? Really Army?

Rhinowso nailed it - waste of time and money, nothing adopted.




"You, my friend, are a highly educated and respected authority on all things frivolous." - my dad

"We can't stop here... this is Bat Country."
 
Posts: 1993 | Location: Northern CO | Registered: March 17, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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FYI - Here is Military.com's follow-up report on this topic:

U.S. Army weapons officials have expanded the list of submachine gun-style weapons the service plans to test to find a low-profile weapon for security personnel.

Project Manager Soldier Weapons announced recently that it planned to spend $428,480 to award sole-source contracts to 10 gun makers for "highly-concealable" subcompact weapons for an upcoming evaluation, according to a June 6 award announcement.

The Army will now add three more companies to the list, bringing the total up to $472,480, according to a June 15 announcement.

Here's a breakdown of the additional awards:

-- Heckler and Koch Defense Inc., for its UMP9 subcompact weapon. Amount: $10,850.

-- Angstadt Arms Corporation for its UDP-9 subcompact weapon. Amount: $15,950.

-- Noveske Corporation for its Noveske subcompact weapon. Amount: $17,200.

Currently personal security detail personnel use M4 carbines and pistols, but Army officials now say these units need an more concealable, but still lethal alternative, according to the original award announcement.

Without such a weapon, PSD military personnel will be left "with a capability gap which can result in increased warfighter casualties and jeopardize the success of the U.S. mission," the announcement adds.

The initial 10 awards will go to Beretta USA, Colt Manufacturing Company, CMMG Inc., CZ-USA, Sig Sauer and five other small arms makers for pistol-caliber weapons "capable of engaging threat personnel with a high volume of lethal and accurate fires at close range with minimal collateral damage," according the original announcement.

Matthew Cox can be reached at matthew.cox@military.com.

© Copyright 2018 Military.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


DE OPPRESSO LIBER

If the enemy is in range, so are you...
 
Posts: 131 | Location: Arizona Territory  | Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Shackelford
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quote:
Originally posted by mark_a:
1) how long has it been since a senior officer was killed by enemy action? The up close and personal kind, not killed on a ship that got blown up

2) how many senior officers have a legitimate need for a full time protective detail?

3) everything I'm seeing about our future war fighting capability indicates ever increasing useage of autonomous systems

4) I wish the requirement included at least an option for 357 sig

There is a list of flag officers killed here:
https://warontherocks.com/2014...icers-killed-in-war/

In Vietnam, half were Air Force & Navy pilot types, but there have been quite a few in harm's way. In our modern counterinsurgencies, with widely scattered small units, many senior leaders, in particular O6 types, travel widely, frequently meeting with and among civilians, where a more low profile weapon might be nice.

The problem with 300 BLK and similar options is that mag compatibility is a serious drawback. The last thing you want is somebody grabbing a mag during a firefight, and trying to fire the wrong caliber. It is one thing for some social HSLd type units to do it on specific missions, but it is not something I think is a good idea in the wider Army.

Having said that, I'm not too hip on this idea, I don't it buys much, if anything in 9mm. Certain other calibers, like 357Sig in a very short barrel is interesting, but even then the appeal is limited.
 
Posts: 693 | Location: Volunteer | Registered: January 16, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of CQB60
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This.
quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
quote:
What is your prediction?

5 years of money and evaluation.

Nothing adopted or bought.

Waste of time and money.


_____________________________________________________________________
”laissez le bon temps rouler“
امّا شما مشخص خواهد شد كه با همه شما را ملاقات کنند
 
Posts: 10621 | Location: Carolina but Texas in my heart | Registered: November 13, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Get my pies
outta the oven!

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Posts: 23235 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: November 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:


Meaning: The company we really wanted to didn’t bid, so we’ll rewrite the spec to make sure they get in.
 
Posts: 1710 | Location: South FL | Registered: February 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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quote:
Originally posted by Dwill104:
Meaning: The company we really wanted to didn’t bid, so we’ll rewrite the spec to make sure they get in.

Sometimes no-bidding is very satisfying. Big Grin
 
Posts: 38562 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Andyb:
quote:
Originally posted by mercedes560:
I've never seen anything CZ made that has the durability that the military needs. It's better than soviet garbage but still not first world military ready.


Roll Eyes


I'll have to second the Roll Eyes. CZ has a long history of supplying high quality military and LE guns. Outside the US they just about dominate mil/LE handgun sales. And their long guns are becoming more popular.
 
Posts: 1251 | Location: Kansas City  | Registered: June 06, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
addicted to trailing-throttle oversteer
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quote:
Originally posted by LDD:
As to why the Army would be looking for a submachine gun, I can't add anything that hasn't already been said. I'm skeptical about how serious this proposal actually is. There is very little that an SBR cannot accomplish that an unsuppressed SMG can. With cartridges like the .300 BLK, there's little need for SMGs, even suppressed.

However, if the army decided to go with an SMG, the MPX would be the obvious choice for a couple reasons.

1) The MPX is manufactured here in the US (political boost).
2) The MPX shares the same manual of arms as the M16/M4.
3) The MPX is easier to manufacture than an MP5, which would likely be the next closest competitor. Although HK would probably try pushing the UMP, it's never lived up to the smoothness of its stamped-steel forebear.

I would tend to agree about the MPX's chances but HK-USA is constantly pushing HK GmbH to establish more manufacturing capacity here on this side of the Atlantic. And considering that the 416/M27 is still on the Marines' docket, that planning process has already been under way. So it would seem that US-made UMP9s, MP5s or whatever can be a done deal kind of thing, as long as HK is willing to play. Our rep has said recently that HK Germany is current stretched to the limit when it comes to their current production capacity.

quote:
I've never seen anything CZ made that has the durability that the military needs. It's better than soviet garbage but still not first world military ready.

There's plenty of agencies and military entities on the planet that would strongly disagree with you. Every time CZ has another pistol shortage for our civilian market it's almost always due to more military and police contracts being signed and subsequently fulfilled by them. And in the past few years we've had plenty of handgun shortages from CZ, so they must be doing something right. Besides, most of my CZs are some of the best-shooting hammer guns that I own, period. They aren't always the prettiest on the inside, but they perform quite well regardless.
 
Posts: 8295 | Location: Drippin' wet | Registered: April 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Why not a P90?
Only the most elite will get SMGs, the required needleblower ammo should not be too much trouble to distribute. And they are already in cahoots with FN for rifles and MGs.
 
Posts: 2674 | Location: Florence, Alabama, USA | Registered: July 05, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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