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PS 90 use by the USSS: Why? Login/Join 
Frangas non Flectes
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by kimberkid:
quote:
Originally posted by HCM:
The P90 itself is a great design and lots of fun to shoot. The caliber, however, is useless outside the niche role which the 5.56 does better.

I do like the design, however it would be much more fun to shoot if ammo wasn't 60 cents a round


Federal American Eagle is available for 37 to 40 cents a round on several sites. If you want the FN stuff, yeah, it's up there.

quote:
Originally posted by kimberkid:
maybe chambered to shoot 22 mag?


A conversion kit would be handy. I believe Design Machines was working on a .22 kit some time back, but it's been years since anything from them has popped online about it. Probably vaporware at this point.

quote:
Originally posted by kimberkid:
While they're at it perhaps improve the trigger like an AUG, the trigger packs are similar so it shouldn't be too hard to adapt the design ... and make it easier to SBR with say a faux suppressor pinned on.


Honestly, the trigger isn't that bad. It isn't great, but it's better than the FS2000, and for both, there are aftermarket upgrades available. SBR'ing it is apparently not too difficult either. I watched a few videos where it was done by the home user in a vice in under 20 minutes.

quote:
Originally posted by kimberkid:
Or, just make the mag wider and chamber it 5.56


The dimensions would dictate a whole new gun, magazines included.

Honestly, after handling and shooting one, I can see why this is the USSS' choice for a PDW. You get a super-compact package, and a lot of firepower for it. Better than an MP5? Arguable, given the ammo chosen, but if you have the budget they have to load it with whatever, I think I'd rather tote the P90. For anything past house range, I get the want to move up to a 5.56. For anything under that, though, I think the P90 or even PS90 offers a lot of "fuck you" in a tiny, controllable package.

quote:
Originally posted by HCM:
With AP ammo, the 5.7 is good at what it was designed to do, penetrate soft body armor but the terminal effects are poor, equivalent to a .22 magnum. I’m not aware of any shooting by USSS with the P90. However, the Jacksonville FL and San Antonio, TX SWAT teams ran them for a while before dumping them due to their abysmal performance in actual shootings.


Nidal Hassan used a FiveSeven pistol and IIRC, 5.7 FN SS197SR (sporting round, blue tip) and killed just about everyone he shot. Out of a pistol. Someone here posted an article a few years back and it was a 90%+ kill ratio on center of mass hits. Just about everyone he hit in the torso was killed. So, if we're going to get anecdotal, let's weight it a bit. There's a number of different loadings in the caliber and only two dedicated weapons that fire it, plus a handful of AR uppers. That's not a ton of data to work with. Data on actual shootings with this round are probably going to be all over the place. And yet, the .22lr still leads the pack in all shooting deaths. Unless you've got stuff to post backing it up, I have a hard time believing this round to have "abysmal" performance. Substandard to many duty loadings of 5.56? Sure. But "abysmal?" I'm gonna ask you to prove your work on that one. It's no .22 Hornet.

My google-fu on Jax says you’re repeating some hearsay:
https://www.fnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5761

15 rounds at 900-ish rounds a minutes isn’t a ton of trigger time.

Can’t find anything on a brief search about San Antonio, but I’d love to see what you have about it.
 
Posts: 10385 | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of CQB60
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Bingo
quote:
Originally posted by PGT:
They used to use Uzi's; the move to the P90 increased lethality against armor and mag capacity, not to mention controllability. Concealibity, round count and short engagement distances for the PPD. Uniformed officers use M4's.


_____________________________________________________________________
”At pretium libertatus“
امّا شما مشخص خواهد شد كه با همه شما را ملاقات کنند
 
Posts: 11775 | Location: VIrtual | Registered: November 13, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of henryaz
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I ran across this interesting and informative video:
 
The Fascinating Anatomy of the Presidential Motorcade



all your sig are belong to us
 
Posts: 8909 | Location: South Congress AZ | Registered: May 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
quote:
Originally posted by kimberkid:
quote:
Originally posted by HCM:
The P90 itself is a great design and lots of fun to shoot. The caliber, however, is useless outside the niche role which the 5.56 does better.

I do like the design, however it would be much more fun to shoot if ammo wasn't 60 cents a round


Federal American Eagle is available for 37 to 40 cents a round on several sites. If you want the FN stuff, yeah, it's up there.

quote:
Originally posted by kimberkid:
maybe chambered to shoot 22 mag?


A conversion kit would be handy. I believe Design Machines was working on a .22 kit some time back, but it's been years since anything from them has popped online about it. Probably vaporware at this point.

quote:
Originally posted by kimberkid:
While they're at it perhaps improve the trigger like an AUG, the trigger packs are similar so it shouldn't be too hard to adapt the design ... and make it easier to SBR with say a faux suppressor pinned on.


Honestly, the trigger isn't that bad. It isn't great, but it's better than the FS2000, and for both, there are aftermarket upgrades available. SBR'ing it is apparently not too difficult either. I watched a few videos where it was done by the home user in a vice in under 20 minutes.

quote:
Originally posted by kimberkid:
Or, just make the mag wider and chamber it 5.56


The dimensions would dictate a whole new gun, magazines included.

Honestly, after handling and shooting one, I can see why this is the USSS' choice for a PDW. You get a super-compact package, and a lot of firepower for it. Better than an MP5? Arguable, given the ammo chosen, but if you have the budget they have to load it with whatever, I think I'd rather tote the P90. For anything past house range, I get the want to move up to a 5.56. For anything under that, though, I think the P90 or even PS90 offers a lot of "fuck you" in a tiny, controllable package.

quote:
Originally posted by HCM:
With AP ammo, the 5.7 is good at what it was designed to do, penetrate soft body armor but the terminal effects are poor, equivalent to a .22 magnum. I’m not aware of any shooting by USSS with the P90. However, the Jacksonville FL and San Antonio, TX SWAT teams ran them for a while before dumping them due to their abysmal performance in actual shootings.


Nidal Hassan used a FiveSeven pistol and IIRC, 5.7 FN SS197SR (sporting round, blue tip) and killed just about everyone he shot. Out of a pistol. Someone here posted an article a few years back and it was a 90%+ kill ratio on center of mass hits. Just about everyone he hit in the torso was killed. So, if we're going to get anecdotal, let's weight it a bit. There's a number of different loadings in the caliber and only two dedicated weapons that fire it, plus a handful of AR uppers. That's not a ton of data to work with. Data on actual shootings with this round are probably going to be all over the place. And yet, the .22lr still leads the pack in all shooting deaths. Unless you've got stuff to post backing it up, I have a hard time believing this round to have "abysmal" performance. Substandard to many duty loadings of 5.56? Sure. But "abysmal?" I'm gonna ask you to prove your work on that one. It's no .22 Hornet.

My google-fu on Jax says you’re repeating some hearsay:
https://www.fnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5761

15 rounds at 900-ish rounds a minutes isn’t a ton of trigger time.

Can’t find anything on a brief search about San Antonio, but I’d love to see what you have about it.



My info is direct from members of the teams in question. Not an FN fan boy forum.

1) two members of the Jax SWAT several years apart. One was a fellow student in an LE Instructor class and one was an instructor in train the trainer a class I took two years ago.

2) multiple members / former of SA SWAT As I’ve lived and worked here for years.

The shootings involving P90s were all eventually resolved successfully but it took many shots (15 to 20) to do it in most cases. There are two problems with that in LE - one more shots equals more potential post shooting issues- two the practice ammo needed to maintain proficiency for full auto fire is cost prohibitive in general.

The results in the Ft Hood shooting were also not impressive when studied in detail. If Hassan had had a 9mm with Duty ammo or a 5.56 the death toll would have been higher. Hassan Shot 32 people, 13 of whom died. That includes contact / finishing shots on some victims. - check your facts. That is less than less than 50%.

Not to mention that a crazy asshole shooting unarmed people in a confined space is not indicative of performance in a fight. A .22 will kill a 1500 lb steer with a contact shot between the eyes.

I’ll stand by my statement. P90 is a neat gun but the 5.7 is ineffective for anti-personnel use.
 
Posts: 391 | Location: Texas | Registered: March 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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HCM, thank you for your insightful posts. Excellent info.


---------------------------------------------
"AND YEA THOUGH THE HINDUS SPEAK OF KARMA, I IMPLORE YOU...GIVE HER A BREAK, LORD". - Clark W. Griswald
 
Posts: 1981 | Location: The South | Registered: September 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Wreckless
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Here's one of my PS90's that I SBR'd. It is a so much better platform when shortened to its designed length. It is very handy and very capable.


La Dolce Vita
 
Posts: 440 | Location: SW Florida & SNJ | Registered: July 26, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
We gonna get some
oojima in this house!
Picture of smithnsig
posted Hide Post
5.7 50 gr Vmax.

There are good loads, just boutique ammo. I would like this in one of the new CMMG 5.7 ARs
Just in 16” barrel.

Would be perfect for HD when you do t want to light off a 556 in your hallway.


-----------------------------------------------------------
TCB all the time...
 
Posts: 6242 | Location: Cantonment/Perdido Key, Florida | Registered: September 28, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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