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quote:
Originally posted by Gundawg:
55 tap urban

How does the 64gr Gold Dot compare to the 55gr TAP Urban? Not concerned about shooting through windshields, but used for home defense. Not looking for multiple wall penetration.
 
Posts: 240 | Location: MN | Registered: January 17, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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quote:
Originally posted by steel96:
How does the 64gr Gold Dot compare to the 55gr TAP Urban? Not concerned about shooting through windshields, but used for home defense.


Ballistic testing of the 55 grain TAP Urban shows that it only penetrates 10" in bare gelatin, and less than that when it encounters barriers. So it does not meet the FBI minimum recommended penetration of 12" to 18", and shows poor weight retention to boot. (That is, it fragments dramatically early into the penetration.)

Therefore it would not be my recommendation for a defensive load. You want something that will hold together to retain most/all of its weight, and penetrate sufficiently into the bad guy to reach vital organs without overpenetrating.
 
Posts: 18537 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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This is what Hornady themselves say about the 55 grain TAP Urban:

“The Hornady® 223 Rem 55 gr. TAP Urban is the preferred choice for use in standard length down to 10.5” barrels when the possibility for barrier penetration is low. Rapid expansion provides dramatic wound cavities and prevents over penetration on non-barrier engagements. These factors make this bullet a great choice when collateral risk is high.”

The one YouTube video I can find shows it expanding explosively in some sort of gel-like test medium, but one fragment penetrated pretty deeply. According to Hornady’s data, the max cavity diameter occurs at 2.4 inches, which is pretty shallow, and has max penetration of 8 inches. IIRC the FBI recommends at least 12 inches of penetration for defensive bullets. I saw one pit bull dog shot with the load and it fully perforated the thorax from one side to the other. The dog ran for over a mile before collapsing, but of course dogs often react to gunshots much differently than people.

I suspect that for personal self-defense it would be fine, especially if minimum penetration of barrier materials is desirable.

The Gold Dot load does not blow up in the same way and penetrates much deeper.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 36903 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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Further thoughts on the Hornady 55 grain TAP load.

RogueJSK makes some valid points. Its explosive expansion (disintegration) and shallow penetration were why I moved my agency away from the load to the Gold Dot.

Any evaluation of a defensive load must consider the circumstances under which it’s likely to be used. A law enforcement duty load must be capable of performing adequately if it’s necessary to shoot through windshields or vehicle bodies, the bullet shouldn’t turn to fragments if it encounters soft body armor or a tree twig in a rural setting, and it should be effective if the officer gets one good hit at 100 yards. All those factors are less important, however, in a home defense load, especially if excessive bullet penetration is a concern.

Even if a bullet is capable of only 8 inches of gelatin penetration, what’s the likelihood that a home invader is going to care? Out of my rifle, the Hornady 55 gr. TAP produces well over 1000 foot-pounds of energy. If the defender puts three or six or seven shots into a criminal’s torso across the living room, does anyone truly believe that he’s just going to say, “Ha! None of those bullets reached my spine. They just chewed the hell out of my lungs and liver. And the energy? Those three shots were only equivalent to nine hits with a 9mm pistol”?

I don’t have to worry much about excessive penetration in a defensive situation, and that’s why I choose the loads I rely on. If I did, though, I wouldn’t hesitate to use the Hornady 55 grain TAP load.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 36903 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
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Yesterday, I put a couple of magazines of Fusion MSR through my Colt 6920 to test for function. No malfunctions. I keep an H2 buffer in this rifle.
 
Posts: 78580 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
We gonna get some
oojima in this house!
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Fusions are good. Pretty accurate for me. Not match accurate, but I am not a match shooter either. All things said, these seem to be the go to. It's also a good hunting round.


-----------------------------------------------------------
9mm
.38 special
7.62x39
.308
 
Posts: 5069 | Location: BPensacola, Florida | Registered: September 28, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
Picture of parabellum
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This is very nicely made ammunition. To begin with, I'm a big fan of Federal ammo. I think the difference between the Fusion .223 and Fusion MSR is the primer and the probably the propellant. I know that the primer for the MSR round is Federal's Gold Medal primer for the AR- GM205MAR.
quote:
It's also a good hunting round.
For the same reasons, it's a good antipersonnel round.
 
Posts: 78580 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This is one of the most informative threads I have seen here.
 
Posts: 1615 | Location: El Paso, Texas | Registered: January 05, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ball Haulin'
Picture of entropy
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I just recently picked up some boxes of 55gr GMX for the pistol. I havent had a chance to test them yet though.



--------------------------------------
"There are things we know. There are things we dont know. Then there are the things we dont know that we dont know."
 
Posts: 10013 | Location: At the end of the gravel road. | Registered: November 02, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by BillF:
This is one of the most informative threads I have seen here.


And worth renewing.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 36903 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Truckin' On
Picture of AH.74
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I like the Fusion as well. They've also been doing a rebate since August 1, through the rest of the year. And for the Power-Shoks.

https://www.federalpremium.com...motions_rebates.aspx


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Posts: 6958 | Registered: November 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I may have skipped it. But what would you guys recommend out of a 10.5" barrel in .223/5.56?




Train how you intend to Fight

Remember - Training is not sparring. Sparring is not fighting. Fighting is not combat.
 
Posts: 7193 | Location: Alpharetta, GA | Registered: August 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by myrottiety:
I may have skipped it. But what would you guys recommend out of a 10.5" barrel in .223/5.56?


Because such a short barrel loses so much velocity and many 223/5.56 loads depend upon high velocity for ballistic effectiveness (wounding), I always point to Speer’s recommendation of the 55 grain Gold Dot for such applications. This is from their site in reference to that load:

“Gold Dot rifle bullets are optimized to ensure expansion out of barrels down to 10" at a wide variety of velocities out to 200 yards.”




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 36903 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Telecom Ronin
Picture of dewhorse
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As mentioned above, gold dots are great. Fusion or Barnes TSX in 55gr are good as well.

The TSX is supposed to expand down to 1700fps, out of my 11.5" that's around 225m.
 
Posts: 6245 | Location: DFW is home but currently in PHX | Registered: February 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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What an amazing thread - very helpful to me!
 
Posts: 480 | Location: central nebraska | Registered: November 29, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A question and a comment:

Out of curiosity, are the Hornady 55gr TAP URBAN loads the same as the Hornady 55gr TAP FPD loads?

I've used the 55gr TAP FPD round out of 16" barrel on groundhogs. When hit, they drop immediately without further movement. Upon examination of the carcass, in every case (albeit, only 4 examples so far), there is no exit wound, suggesting (to me) minimal penetration and maximum fragmentation. This round is relegated to varmint hunting for my uses. For larger game or SD purposes, the Federal MSR 62gr or Gold Dot 62-64gr would be a much better choice.
 
Posts: 508 | Location: Ohio & UP of Michigan | Registered: April 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of pepsiblue
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by myrottiety:
I may have skipped it. But what would you guys recommend out of a 10.5" barrel in .223/5.56?


Because such a short barrel loses so much velocity and many 223/5.56 loads depend upon high velocity for ballistic effectiveness (wounding), I always point to Speer’s recommendation of the 55 grain Gold Dot for such applications. This is from their site in reference to that load:

“Gold Dot rifle bullets are optimized to ensure expansion out of barrels down to 10" at a wide variety of velocities out to 200 yards.”


Would this also hold true for a 7.5" barrel you think?





10mm lays waste to entire cities, cuts through diamonds and will tear Superman a new asshole. - Parabellum

Sex offenders can not be rehabilitated. It's in their wiring. They should not be released back into the general public. On the other hand they should not be warehoused either. I think they should be executed.....Spectre

When someone tries to kill you, it doesn't matter how they are doing it. You're in mortal danger, and it's time to try to kill them back.

Arc.
___

Kill every last one of these goddamned animals. We need a president with balls. We need leadership. We should be carpet bombing these barbarians wherever we find them, and we should be looking for them 24/7. We have to unleash Hell upon them. They understand nothing but death, so death is what we should bring them, wholesale.... Para
 
Posts: 1918 | Location: Kentucky | Registered: July 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by jaybird86:
My 11.5 SBR is loaded with Hornady TAP 223 REM 62gr TAP Barrier. Where I live its very urban, so I wanted the barrier blind aspect. I also got them for like 44cents a round on a closeout deal.

Dr. Roberts copy and paste from M4C.

"This was more suited to LEO applications, but it's an interesting read nonetheless

"For LE Patrol use, where there is a high incidence of potential engagements around or involving vehicles, ammunition that is able to effectively penetrate intermediate barriers, particularly vehicle glass is critical. The best LE 5.56 mm/.223 loads for intermediate barrier penetration using 1/9 and faster twist barrels are the 5.56 mm Federal 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3) and 5.56 mm Winchester 64 gr solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B) developed for the FBI, along with the outstanding new Black Hills 5.56 mm 50 gr TSX loading. Another acceptable 5.56 mm loading is the Speer 55 gr Gold Dot JSP; the Federal 5.56 mm 62 gr Mk318 Mod0 (T556TNB1) is also a potential option. Note that these are all true 5.56 mm loads that require a real milspec 5.56 mm chamber, not a SAAMI .223 chamber--be sure to check with an appropriate gauge or reamer. Most other acceptable LE barrier blind loadings are at .223 pressures, including the .223 55 & 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical loads (LE223T1 & LE223T3), along with loads using Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP, Remington 62 gr Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded JSP (PRC223R4), .223 Federal 55 gr TSX (T223S), and the .223 Speer 55 & 64 gr Gold Dot JSP's (and identically constructed Federal 62 gr Fusion JSP and Federal XM223SP1 62gr Bonded JSP). The Swift 75 gr Scirocco bonded PT is also good choice, but usually requires a 1/7 twist. Note that the Barnes all copper TSX bullets are great projectiles and offer good penetration through barriers, however, when first hitting a laminated automobile windshield intermediate barrier, most TSX bullets exhibit less expansion than bonded JSP’s, as the Barnes jacket either collapses at the nose, the jacket "petals" fold back against the core, or the "petals" are torn off; this results in a caliber size projectile configured a lot like a full wadcutter, leading to deep penetration. If running 1/12 twist barrels, stick with the BH 50 gr TSX, Fed 55 gr TBBC, Speer 55 gr Gold Dot, or Fed 55 gr TSX. NONE of the fragmenting 5.56 mm OTM bullets, even the heavy 75 - 100 gr loads, offer acceptable performance through automobile windshield glass. Contrary to what many believe, M193 & M855 FMJ are not very good against glass; the best military 5.56 mm load against glass is 52 gr M995 AP, followed by the 62 gr Mk318 Mod0 OTM and 70 gr Optimal "brown tip" OTM.

In those situations where intermediate barrier penetration is not a critical requirement, for example LE urban entries or long range shots in open conditions, then OTM, JHP, and standard JSP loads can offer acceptable performance. For 1/7 twist barrels, the Hornady 75 gr OTM, Nosler 77 gr OTM, and Sierra 77 gr SMK OTM are all good choices. The experimental BH loaded 100 gr OTM exhibits impressive fragmentation, even at relatively low velocities, however while capable of shooting out to 600, it is optimized for 200 and under. If stuck with 1/9 twist barrels, the heavy 70+ gr loads are not universally accurate in all rifles and the 69 gr SMK OTM, the 68 gr Hornady OTM, the Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2), the Federal 64 gr TRU (T223L) JSP, Hornady 60 gr JSP, are likely to run accurately in the majority of 1/9 twist rifles. Again it is critical to keep in mind that the above loads fail to offer adequate penetration through intermediate barriers."

- Dr. Roberts "

v/r,


Unfortunately the TAP barrier is not truly barrier blind.


---------------------------------------------
"AND YEA THOUGH THE HINDUS SPEAK OF KARMA, I IMPLORE YOU...GIVE HER A BREAK, LORD". - Clark W. Griswald
 
Posts: 1821 | Location: The South | Registered: September 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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In my limited testing the Speer 64 grain Gold Dot load performed better through barriers than the Hornady 62 grain “Barrier.”

More to the point, though, and as I keep pointing out over and over, the 223 Remington/5.56mm NATO cartridge relies on velocity to achieve its ballistic effects: Lower velocity = less effective. Very short barrels lose a lot of velocity, and unfortunately there seems to be very little information available about actual ballistic effects out of short barrels. Looking at the results obtained with typical 16 inch carbines and assuming that they will be the same with a 11.5" or shorter barrel might be a significant mistake. In a personal defense situation shooting someone with any load out of any AR will probably convince him to stop being a nuisance; but the same may not be true if we’re hoping for a particular effect on barriers.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 36903 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigless in
Indiana
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quote:
Originally posted by parabellum:
In terms of choices of ammunition, it occurred to me that employing a pair of linked magazines might be useful for a rifle kept loaded and at the ready. Let's say you keep an AR for home defense, and it might travel a bit, too. In the mag locked into the rifle, you could have your anti-personnel loads; Fusion, Gold Dots, et cetera. In the other magazine, you could have a barrier blind load, for the world at large. Switching between magazines would take three or four seconds. Just a thought.



If you do that, do it with Pmags with a cover on the secondary mag.

Recoil will walk the top round out of a magazine that is coupled to the one in the magazine well.

That is my experience with coupled USGI magazines.
 
Posts: 12686 | Location: The Edge of the Ozarks | Registered: December 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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