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After studying this for awhile I converted to the bonded JSP loads. Access to the LE loads in volume is sometimes difficult for me so I have mix of the WinLE64,the Federal 62g Bonded JSP and Hornady 62g tap barrier (by far the easiest to find). I would consider any of these superior to M193 in every area except cost.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 6094 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Welcome to the machine
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One load to consider is the Barnes TSX 55gr. I'll be honest and say that I don't know all the details on that round. However, it's a solid copper projectile that I've had shoot very accurately out of several different ARs.

I've been using that for all my deer hunting for the past three years and have been extremely impressed with it's effectiveness. I've shot four deer and all have dropped instantly. Damage to the lungs and upper thoracic area has been devastating.

Since it's an all-copper construction, I would think that it would hold up well through glass and car door materials. One of the only downsides can be lack of availability. I keep an eye out for it and will buy a couple boxes whenever I can.
 
Posts: 3060 | Registered: November 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Alienator
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I have my 556 loaded with this:

Its a 40gr. polymer tip round by Fiocchi.

LINK


SIG556 Classic
P220 Carry SAS Gen 2 SAO
SP2022 9mm German Triple Serial
P938 SAS

Psalm 118:24 "This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it"
 
Posts: 4656 | Location: NC | Registered: March 16, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Unknown
Stuntman
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There are threads I don't have enough data or knowledge to comment on, but I thoroughly enjoy reading.

This is one of them.

I don't know why I get geeked out on ballistics, but I do. I wish Sigfreund had some photos and research on .300 BO.

Good stuff, gents.
 
Posts: 9543 | Location: missouri | Registered: October 18, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Tupperware Dr.
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quote:
Originally posted by bionic218:
There are threads I don't have enough data or knowledge to comment on, but I thoroughly enjoy reading.

This is one of them.

I don't know why I get geeked out on ballistics, but I do. I wish Sigfreund had some photos and research on .300 BO.

Good stuff, gents.


Same here, there are some great response so far and I'm very interested to see what/why all the choices are.
I will say, that my mags are loaded currently with M193.But, I also have a mag of Fed 64gr PowerShok.

We've shot ground hogs with M193, Fed 69gr GoldMatch SMKBTHP, Fed 64gr PowerShok, and the Fed Fusion 62gr, and the results were interesting.

Although it's only a groundhog (or as Dad used to call them, a Pennsylvania Pasture Poodle) the results of the M193 put a neat hole in them. The 69 Gold SMKBTHP had a nice exit hole but nothing too gruesome. The 64 PowerShok and the Fusion 62 ripped the bodies up with more of an "explosive" expansion, and the critters were lights out immediately.

This was last year shooting out of my 20" bolt rifle. I've yet to sit down with my M4's to shoot groups and feel confident with the POI, but based on the hunting wounds I'm sure a fast expanding bullet design would be very effective.
 
Posts: 2807 | Registered: December 28, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by SIG4EVA:
I have my 556 loaded with this:

Its a 40gr. polymer tip round by Fiocchi.

LINK


I'm curious as to why you chose that load. It's primarily designed for VERY rapid expansion on small animals. I can't imagine that it would do very well as a self defense round.
 
Posts: 5937 | Location: The Red part of Minnesota | Registered: October 06, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
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Thanks for the replies. At this point, I have decided to try out the Federal Fusion MSR. It does appear to use the same projectile as the Federal Tactical bonded.

I was a bit taken aback when I saw the youtube video from tnoutdoors, testing the Fusion and Fusion MSR. He got a mere 9 inches of penetration, and then I realized that he is mixing his own ballistic gel.
I see comments online of hunters taking whitetail deer with this cartridge and penetration of the MSR as shown on Federal's site is more in line with the comments I'm seeing about the great performance of this cartridge.

The MSR does appear to be distinct from the standard Fusion round. Apparently, the difference is the powder, optimized for shorter barrels. Also, the primer may be different, but I'm not so sure about that. Neither does showing the annealing marks on the upper portion of the case make any difference. Both the Fusion and the Fusion MSR utilize cases which have been annealed after forming. Federal simply leaves this annealing iris in place on the MSR cartridge case, as a nod, I suppose, to its intended use in AR-type rifles.

The MSR is a good choice, because there are a couple of alternatives, one being the standard Fusion cartridge, and the other is Speer's 62 grain Gold Dot. According to what I've found out from reliable sources, the Fusion and the 62 grain Gold Dot are for all practical purposes, interchangeable.


____________________________________________________

There are two tragedies in life. One is not to get your heart's desire. The other is to get it. ― George Bernard Shaw
 
Posts: 77393 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Alienator
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quote:
Originally posted by MNSIG:
quote:
Originally posted by SIG4EVA:
I have my 556 loaded with this:

Its a 40gr. polymer tip round by Fiocchi.

LINK


I'm curious as to why you chose that load. It's primarily designed for VERY rapid expansion on small animals. I can't imagine that it would do very well as a self defense round.


My hope is that the high velocity and light weight bullet will still do the damage needed against a person but break up easier when hitting a barrier. Purely a guess on my end. I also have M193 loaded in backup mags as well.


SIG556 Classic
P220 Carry SAS Gen 2 SAO
SP2022 9mm German Triple Serial
P938 SAS

Psalm 118:24 "This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it"
 
Posts: 4656 | Location: NC | Registered: March 16, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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quote:
Originally posted by szuppo:
Have you looked at the Federal Lake City 5.56mm 62 Grain MK318 MOD 0 SOST ammunition?

Designated as MK318 MOD-0 the round was designed as a barrier defeating round with superior penetration and better ballistic stability when shooting through glass, car doors and other barriers where other rounds simply bounce off. It was engineered after the Marine Corp identified issues with the M855 round. MK318 utilizes a 62 grain open tip boattail match bullet with a lead core and reverse copper jacket creating the open tip.


I have this and 4 tough hogs agree that it's effective. 3 dropped instantly with COM hits with it, and the 4th couldn't do much after one broke its leg and a second disembowled it (yes, shot placement was not good but 6 shots in 30 seconds on moving targets from 15-75 yards, I'll take it).




read what you want
watch what you want
play what you want
think what you want
say what you want
 
Posts: 34608 | Location: Around | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
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You mean the MK318 MOD 0 SOST round that I saw online last night completely penetrate two 18" gel blocks?

This would not serve my purposes. I'm talking about use in an occupied dwelling. I wouldn't have a round with such penetration characteristics.
 
Posts: 77393 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by parabellum:
You mean the MK318 MOD 0 SOST round that I saw online last night completely penetrate two 18" gel blocks?


Interesting. Was the barrel length of the rifle given?




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 36527 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
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Posts: 77393 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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Thanks. As I say, interesting.

I would really like to know why it failed to tumble. In my limited experience and in looking at the recovered bullet, I wonder if it actually expanded (as military bullets aren’t supposed to do). It seems that when bullets expand they remain nose forward through flesh or test media. If it expands to a limited degree but doesn’t tumble and fragment, that would result in deep penetration but limited wounding effects.

The bullet may be great for defeating barriers, but based on that demonstration I could certainly think of countless other loads I’d prefer for antipersonnel purposes.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 36527 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I am liking the mk262. Black Hills civvies box says 5.56 77gr OTM. Works close and is retarded accurate far. There are a lot of articles about how the spec ops guys started using it. They actually started stealing it from the snipers and DM's. Seems to work great from SBR's on up.


For ME:
DA/SA= Sig 9mm
Striker fired= Glock 9mm
If it's a .45= 1911
Suppressed= HK in .45
I like anything in 10mm

 
Posts: 1247 | Location: VA | Registered: July 29, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Telecom Ronin
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quote:
Originally posted by Mainspring:
One load to consider is the Barnes TSX 55gr. I'll be honest and say that I don't know all the details on that round. However, it's a solid copper projectile that I've had shoot very accurately out of several different ARs.

I've been using that for all my deer hunting for the past three years and have been extremely impressed with it's effectiveness. I've shot four deer and all have dropped instantly. Damage to the lungs and upper thoracic area has been devastating.

Since it's an all-copper construction, I would think that it would hold up well through glass and car door materials. One of the only downsides can be lack of availability. I keep an eye out for it and will buy a couple boxes whenever I can.


Good real world data.....what length barrel?

thank you
 
Posts: 6152 | Location: DFW is home but currently in PHX | Registered: February 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lost Allman Brother
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quote:
Originally posted by parabellum:
Thanks for the replies. At this point, I have decided to try out the Federal Fusion MSR. It does appear to use the same projectile as the Federal Tactical bonded.



Last I looked into stocking up on them, the Fed Tactical Bonded .223 used the very stoutly constructed Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bullet. The design lends itself to deep penetration and holding up well through barriers due to the solid copper base as exhibited in this picture (pictured bullet is a .300 I think, the .224 TBBC is constructed the same internally and mushrooms similarly):

It's also expensive to manufacture compared to the Fusion/Gold Dot bullet, shown here:


The FBI chose to use the TBBC loaded to 5.56 pressures for one of their duty rounds, but unless you need that last few percent of theoretical advantage and have generous taxpayer funding, the Fusion/GD makes a lot of sense.


_________________________
Their system of ethics, which regards treachery and violence as virtues rather than vices, has produced a code of honour so strange and inconsistent, that it is incomprehensible to a logical mind.

-Winston Churchill, writing of the Pashtun
 
Posts: 3775 | Location: Holly Springs/Canton, GA | Registered: November 02, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
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Thank you. Sorry, I meant to say the same as the Gold Dot.
 
Posts: 77393 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I too started with xm193. I have since moved to 55 gr tap after internet research. I would also recommend 62 gr gold dot if you can find it. Local police use it and have had great results. Mk262 is a good bet especially at distance.

Most of my ARs are loaded with 55 gr tap backed up by 5 mags of xm193.


-----------------------------------------

Roll Tide!

Glock Certified Armorer
NRA Certified Firearms Instructor
 
Posts: 6021 | Location: Hoover, AL | Registered: November 06, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
And this, too,
shall pass away
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Good thread.

I, too, trust the Federal M193 to do the job. While I recognize it's not perfect, it's better than any handgun round.

If I were to go to a different round, a more effective round, it would probably be a 55grn TAP - same trajectory, better projectile. (The best may be the SF/high weight stuff, but availability, cost, and zeroing all are against that.)

Still, I like that my practice round is moderately priced, easy to find, reliable in all platforms, and will be exactly what I'm pulling the trigger on if I need it.

The fact is, I can't burn through multiple mags of TAP like I can M193. And, M193 works, maybe not as good as the premiums stuff, but it's hits which count.

I begrudge no one upgrading to the high zoot stuff, but am saying not to discount the old standbys, either.

Thanks for Para for starting this conversation.
 
Posts: 3636 | Location: AZ | Registered: June 27, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Great thread, has lead me me to switch to Fusion MSR as well. Ordered up a case today.


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Posts: 6173 | Location: One step ahead of you | Registered: February 10, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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