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Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted
Scenario- You are shooting a stage that allows you to top off to division limits (11 for me shooting production). And in that stage, you have one part shot from cover, movement to another location, and shoot from a second port. The first part of the stage requires 10 rounds which leaves you with one in the gun. When you hit phase 2, you have a forced emergency reload.

I've shot in several different clubs and see penalties added for the following. The shooter dumps that 11th shot on the first phase and reloads on the move. The rational for the penalty is moving with an empty gun when you should be reloading behind cover. Other clubs allow it with no penalty.

Which is correct by the rules?


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"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011

"There are only two reasons why a proven technique doesn't work under stress: the shooter isn't adequately trained in it's application, or he/she doesn't really believe it will work because he/she is programmed for failure to begin with." BG

 
Posts: 30107 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
Picture of henryaz
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Scenario- You are shooting a stage that allows you to top off to division limits (11 for me shooting production). And in that stage, you have one part shot from cover, movement to another location, and shoot from a second port. The first part of the stage requires 10 rounds which leaves you with one in the gun. When you hit phase 2, you have a forced emergency reload.

I've shot in several different clubs and see penalties added for the following. The shooter dumps that 11th shot on the first phase and reloads on the move. The rational for the penalty is moving with an empty gun when you should be reloading behind cover. Other clubs allow it with no penalty.

Which is correct by the rules?

"Allowing you to top off" is not an issue. You must load to full division capacity (or your gun's full capacity), unless the scenario calls for downloading.
 
Reloading. You may do any kind of reload (emergency or retention) behind cover, on the move, or even in the open between cover positions, just as long as you are not exposed to unengaged targets. The exception to this is if the scenario calls for you to engage targets in the open. You may go to slide-lock, reload, and continue to engage targets in the open while moving to cover.
 
 
Posts: 6652 | Location: South Congress AZ | Registered: May 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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As long as you are not exposed to the target at position 2 when you leave position 1 you can do whatever is legal
based on your description it sounds like those clubs SO's assessing penalties have not read the new rules.

2017 Rules
B answers your question.

3.5.6 Cover During Reloads
A. When the shooter runs the firearm empty in the open, the shooter may reload in the open and continue
engaging targets as needed or move to the next shooting position.

B. In stages with cover or concealment, shooters may reload standing still or on the move at any time, as long as
they are not exposed to targets that are not fully engaged during the reload.
IDPA Rules

I would bring that up with the CSO if it happens again

For any competitor, if you have a doubt about the penalty assessed, just say "Show me the rule" to the RO or SO. No SO or RO i know of will ever have an issue with that request.

Do these SO's also say things like Gimme a nod when you're ready, does the shooter understand the course of fire? Shooter indicates ready!

If so it tells me they have not rule book in quite some time
 
Posts: 307 | Location: FL-Palm Beach County | Registered: December 27, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
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Yeah, they do give the prepatory commands. I don't know if it is just lax enforcement of the rules, or what. I've seen procedurals handed out here and there that I just didn't agree with club to club. I think it is just like some clubs are lax on cover penalties, and some clubs aren't.

Up till this year, I've just shot it for fun. Now, I've taken it a bit more serious.


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"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011

"There are only two reasons why a proven technique doesn't work under stress: the shooter isn't adequately trained in it's application, or he/she doesn't really believe it will work because he/she is programmed for failure to begin with." BG

 
Posts: 30107 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by henryaz:

"Allowing you to top off" is not an issue. You must load to full division capacity (or your gun's full capacity), unless the scenario calls for downloading.
 


I think I wasn't clear on what I was saying. Some people take that "make up" shot (unless prohibited by stage requirements) to force the reload early. Like prior to movement, or forcing a reload before a swinger or drop turner instead of during.


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"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011

"There are only two reasons why a proven technique doesn't work under stress: the shooter isn't adequately trained in it's application, or he/she doesn't really believe it will work because he/she is programmed for failure to begin with." BG

 
Posts: 30107 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I don't know man I
just got here myself
Picture of mrw
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Dumping the round is Ok as long as the stage is unlimited. Last year breaking cover with an unloaded firearm would have been a PE. With rules changes this year it is no longer a PE. I would shoot one target three times at the first shooting location then reload the empty mag on the move to shooting location two.


mrw

Hand Made Custom Knives
www.sandownforge.com
 
Posts: 1436 | Location: New Hampshire & Florida | Registered: June 29, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of konata88
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What would one do in real life? Do the rules encourage that behavior? If not, why not?




"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - B.Franklin
"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy
 
Posts: 6097 | Location: In the gilded cage | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Casuistic Thinker and Daoist
Picture of 9mmepiphany
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quote:
Originally posted by mrw:
Dumping the round is Ok as long as the stage is unlimited.

Just for clarity, that should be, "As long as it is at a target." We just DQ'd a couple of guys last weekend who dumped rounds into the berm

quote:
I would shoot one target three times at the first shooting location then reload the empty mag on the move to shooting location two.

I did this at the last Regional match I shot. I engaged 2 targets, on the move, with 3 rounds each, so that my reloads would be optimized for the target arrays. I actually timed it out in practice and I could clean both targets faster taking the extra shot on both




No, Daoism isn't a religion



 
Posts: 12947 | Location: northern california | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Casuistic Thinker and Daoist
Picture of 9mmepiphany
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Which is correct by the rules?

There is no PE under the current rulebook as long as you are not exposed to unengaged targets during your reload.

It does sound like some SOs are enforcing rules from the older rulebook. Since SOs only have to re-cert every 2 years, it becomes a larger problem when there is a recent change. There are still SOs who think there are still FTDR and FTN penalties.

quote:
I think it is just like some clubs are lax on cover penalties, and some clubs aren't.

The change in the rule requiring fault lines has really cut down on Cover calls




No, Daoism isn't a religion



 
Posts: 12947 | Location: northern california | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ammoholic
Picture of Skins2881
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And this is why I shoot USPSA and steel challenge.

I prefer freestyle. It's a game. Plus I don't any fishing gear.



Jesse

A couple SIGs and a few others
 
Posts: 9287 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: December 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
Picture of henryaz
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quote:
Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:
There are still SOs who think there are still FTDR and FTN penalties.

FTDR still exists, as does a new "intermediate" penalty of 10 seconds, the FP, or flagrant penalty. FTN is gone, because the new scoring of 1 full second per point down makes it unnecessary (or overkill).
 
FP's are being handed out at our local club for excessive noise from those off the line, which interferes with the SO and shooter.
 
 
Posts: 6652 | Location: South Congress AZ | Registered: May 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by konata88:
What would one do in real life? Do the rules encourage that behavior? If not, why not?


I don't think you can game your reloads in real life. Big Grin Aside from that, if my first array of bad guys is five deep, not even I will stand flat footed and fight it out with them. A good run is way better than a bad stand. Razz (especially with a pistol)


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"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011

"There are only two reasons why a proven technique doesn't work under stress: the shooter isn't adequately trained in it's application, or he/she doesn't really believe it will work because he/she is programmed for failure to begin with." BG

 
Posts: 30107 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Which is correct by the rules?

There is no PE under the current rulebook as long as you are not exposed to unengaged targets during your reload.

It does sound like some SOs are enforcing rules from the older rulebook. Since SOs only have to re-cert every 2 years, it becomes a larger problem when there is a recent change. There are still SOs who think there are still FTDR and FTN penalties.

quote:
I think it is just like some clubs are lax on cover penalties, and some clubs aren't.

The change in the rule requiring fault lines has really cut down on Cover calls


Yeah, you are definitely right.


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"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011

"There are only two reasons why a proven technique doesn't work under stress: the shooter isn't adequately trained in it's application, or he/she doesn't really believe it will work because he/she is programmed for failure to begin with." BG

 
Posts: 30107 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Casuistic Thinker and Daoist
Picture of 9mmepiphany
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by henryaz:
FTDR still exists

You're right...I've only seen 2 FTDN ever handed out; both were highly deserved
 
quote:
FP's are being handed out at our local club for excessive noise from those off the line, which interferes with the SO and shooter.
 

That is an excellent use of the FP.

I've noticed that the FP is also causing fewer folks to stand flatfooted, when engaging a Drop-Turning, when they should be moving




No, Daoism isn't a religion



 
Posts: 12947 | Location: northern california | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Casuistic Thinker and Daoist
Picture of 9mmepiphany
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:
The change in the rule requiring fault lines has really cut down on Cover calls


Yeah, you are definitely right.

It must be giving Cover Nazis a fit...looking forward to seeing it's effect at the Washington State Match in August




No, Daoism isn't a religion



 
Posts: 12947 | Location: northern california | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:
The change in the rule requiring fault lines has really cut down on Cover calls


Yeah, you are definitely right.

It must be giving Cover Nazis a fit...looking forward to seeing it's effect at the Washington State Match in August


You shouting CDP?


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"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011

"There are only two reasons why a proven technique doesn't work under stress: the shooter isn't adequately trained in it's application, or he/she doesn't really believe it will work because he/she is programmed for failure to begin with." BG

 
Posts: 30107 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Casuistic Thinker and Daoist
Picture of 9mmepiphany
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
You shouting CDP?

I went back to my roots...Revolver w/speedloaders




No, Daoism isn't a religion



 
Posts: 12947 | Location: northern california | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
Picture of henryaz
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
[QUOTE]I think it is just like some clubs are lax on cover penalties, and some clubs aren't.

The change in the rule requiring fault lines has really cut down on Cover calls

And it has had another welcome consequence, at least at our local club. We have both USPSA and IDPA matches, and many of the USPSA shooters would never shoot IDPA, simply because of the arbitrary cover calls. Now, they are coming over, and enjoying it, because the fault lines (we use 1x2's nailed down) are exactly like what they are used to in USPSA. They may find themselves shooting from a more awkward position, but the tactile fault line provides the confidence they won't be dinged arbitrarily for a cover violation.
 
 
Posts: 6652 | Location: South Congress AZ | Registered: May 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
And enjoying the game is what it is all about.


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Check out our customer appreciation class
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"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011

"There are only two reasons why a proven technique doesn't work under stress: the shooter isn't adequately trained in it's application, or he/she doesn't really believe it will work because he/she is programmed for failure to begin with." BG

 
Posts: 30107 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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