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It's my way or the Highway
Picture of piedrarc
posted
What do you shoot and why?

I'm looking for opinions on the different disciplines out there. I currently shoot IDPA and a speed shoot called ZEV-Tech speed shoot similar to USPSA. I personally prefer IDPA, only cause I cannot stand people air gunning a stage 20 damn times before you shoot. I also dislike the 20 mag carriers from forward of the hip bone to the butt crack, but again thats just my opinion. I'm guessing thats just how it is?

I've shot IDPA for a year now and although some of the rules are lame, I do enjoy it. What other shooting disciplines would you recommend?


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Posts: 4633 | Location: surrounded by liberals. | Registered: September 02, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted Hide Post
Interesting question.

This may not be what you’re asking, but I shoot to improve what I consider to be important firearms handling and operating skills for defensive and law enforcement purposes. I have therefore developed my own courses of fire and drills that I continually analyze and modify as necessary to improve and/or to address those skills.

To cite just one recent example, my range has a rack of knock-down plates, but rather than just stand and shoot at them, I combine movement and use of cover and shooting from different positions. In addition, I have a couple of sections of yellow gas pipe that must be engaged while lying on the ground and shooting under a board laid across two cinder blocks. That simulates shooting at someone’s legs under a car.

In her book Quiet, Susan Cain (along with many other trainers, I’m sure) points out that developing true expertise in physical skills requires dedicated, solitary practice that focuses on specific goals. Although I have never participated in IDPA or similar competitions, I cannot help but believe that they do not truly provide that practice (and I realize that no one is claiming they do).

The advantage of competition is that it conditions participants to perform under the pressures of being compared with other shooters and having to perform well with no do-overs. On the other hand, such competitions are usually limited in the scope of what they test, they include artificialities that may become a shooter’s focus to the detriment of more realistic challenges, they frustrate participants who object to their artificial elements, and they probably don’t provide the opportunity of really very much trigger time.

If they have the time, facilities, and other necessities required for individual training, that’s what I recommend shooters pursue. I realize that many shooters don’t have the luxury of doing whatever they want, but even severe limitations on such things as rapid fire and drawing from a holster still permit more useful activities than putting up four or five bull’s-eye targets and firing 50 rounds through each one with different guns.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 35798 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Persian
Picture of PPGMD
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by piedrarc:
I personally prefer IDPA, only cause I cannot stand people air gunning a stage 20 damn times before you shoot.


One of my favorite meme images is pictures of the mock Bin Laden Raid compound with the caption being "SEAL Team Six airguns."

Anyways I've shot most of the major ones.

USPSA - The most enjoyable match I shoot, the challenges vary, and can be extremely hard on a regular basis. It doesn't pretend to be anything but a shooting sport.

Steel Challenge - Drag racing with guns, and is actually harder than it looks when you get serious.

NRA Action Pistol "Bianchi Cup" - Extremely humbling match. But it teaches you to make those hard shots are demand with no make ups.

GSSF - I shoot this when it is local as it takes almost no time (about 90 minutes for me), and the prizes are quite good.

IDPA - It just doesn't present the challenge that USPSA does. And I have limited time, with all the major matches I shoot I only get to shoot maybe 3-4 club matches I year I'd rather that they be matches I enjoy to shoot.


-------
Take your time, I'm hourly.

Mr. Doom and Gloom
"King in the north!"
"Slow is smooth... and also slow.

The opinions posted by this user are his own. And do not represent the opinions of his employer or sponsors.
 
Posts: 19514 | Location: At the wall | Registered: February 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I shot IPSA about 25 years ago. Used a Colt Gold Cup in .45 acp.
Then got out of competition as life got busy.
About 3 years ago local USPSA matches were offered (only type of competition locally). I started out in revolver division just to have fun shooting again.
Recently switched to single stack with the Colt Gold Cup. Still shoot for fun.
I enjoy watching other competitors (especially your videos) and comparing various equipment.

PC
 
Posts: 407 | Location: NW Wyoming | Registered: November 23, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
It's my way or the Highway
Picture of piedrarc
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by PPGMD:
quote:
Originally posted by piedrarc:
I personally prefer IDPA, only cause I cannot stand people air gunning a stage 20 damn times before you shoot.


One of my favorite meme images is pictures of the mock Bin Laden Raid compound with the caption being "SEAL Team Six airguns."



A team insert, raid and extract is hardly a comparison to air gunning a stage at a match. But if that makes someone feel like they are on the same level of a door kicker I guess it's all good.

But I guess they could pick a local shooter from a match to go with them on the raid..... Razz


_____________________________

Semper Fidelis

RIP 17843

Operation Specific Training

Bang, bang, Click
 
Posts: 4633 | Location: surrounded by liberals. | Registered: September 02, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Persian
Picture of PPGMD
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by piedrarc:
quote:
Originally posted by PPGMD:
quote:
Originally posted by piedrarc:
I personally prefer IDPA, only cause I cannot stand people air gunning a stage 20 damn times before you shoot.


One of my favorite meme images is pictures of the mock Bin Laden Raid compound with the caption being "SEAL Team Six airguns."



A team insert, raid and extract is hardly a comparison to air gunning a stage at a match. But if that makes someone feel like they are on the same level of a door kicker I guess it's all good.

But I guess they could pick a local shooter from a match to go with them on the raid..... Razz


Actually it is valid comparison. If you have the time and available information extensive planing and walk throughes are what the pros do. Because the pro want to win, which for them is achieving the objective with minimal loss of life. And that doesn't even consider the fact that most team CQB is a half a dozen preplanned tactics that are practiced over and over again.

Besides which IDPA has basically the same thing, you are certainly walking through planning your stage, at least that is what the people that want to win do. And ever after the walk through period I am standing back going over exactly what targets I am going to shoot, how I am going to approach the position, when I am going to reload, et al. Programming it into my head so I simply step up and do it.

I may not be able to do walk through the stage itself right before I shoot, nor raise my hands up but those are pretty minor differences particularly when you factor in how simple IDPA stages are.


-------
Take your time, I'm hourly.

Mr. Doom and Gloom
"King in the north!"
"Slow is smooth... and also slow.

The opinions posted by this user are his own. And do not represent the opinions of his employer or sponsors.
 
Posts: 19514 | Location: At the wall | Registered: February 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
It's my way or the Highway
Picture of piedrarc
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
Interesting question.

This may not be what you’re asking, but I shoot to improve what I consider to be important firearms handling and operating skills for defensive and law enforcement purposes. I have therefore developed my own courses of fire and drills that I continually analyze and modify as necessary to improve and/or to address those skills.

To cite just one recent example, my range has a rack of knock-down plates, but rather than just stand and shoot at them, I combine movement and use of cover and shooting from different positions. In addition, I have a couple of sections of yellow gas pipe that must be engaged while lying on the ground and shooting under a board laid across two cinder blocks. That simulates shooting at someone’s legs under a car.

In her book Quiet, Susan Cain (along with many other trainers, I’m sure) points out that developing true expertise in physical skills requires dedicated, solitary practice that focuses on specific goals. Although I have never participated in IDPA or similar competitions, I cannot help but believe that they do not truly provide that practice (and I realize that no one is claiming they do).

The advantage of competition is that it conditions participants to perform under the pressures of being compared with other shooters and having to perform well with no do-overs. On the other hand, such competitions are usually limited in the scope of what they test, they include artificialities that may become a shooter’s focus to the detriment of more realistic challenges, they frustrate participants who object to their artificial elements, and they probably don’t provide the opportunity of really very much trigger time.

If they have the time, facilities, and other necessities required for individual training, that’s what I recommend shooters pursue. I realize that many shooters don’t have the luxury of doing whatever they want, but even severe limitations on such things as rapid fire and drawing from a holster still permit more useful activities than putting up four or five bull’s-eye targets and firing 50 rounds through each one with different guns.


It isn't, but I do appreciate your insight. I believe we both have to offer some type of realistic training in our day jobs to facilitate a high level of weapons handling. I'm only speaking from my end, but often running a range gives us limited time to get the guys in red trigger time. I think the competitive shooting sports is a huge plus, I'd encourage you to give it a try if you can.


_____________________________

Semper Fidelis

RIP 17843

Operation Specific Training

Bang, bang, Click
 
Posts: 4633 | Location: surrounded by liberals. | Registered: September 02, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
It's my way or the Highway
Picture of piedrarc
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by PPGMD:


Actually it is valid comparison. If you have the time and available information extensive planing and walk throughes are what the pros do. Because the pro want to win, which for them is achieving the objective with minimal loss of life. And that doesn't even consider the fact that most team CQB is a half a dozen preplanned tactics that are practiced over and over again.

Besides which IDPA has basically the same thing, you are certainly walking through planning your stage, at least that is what the people that want to win do. And ever after the walk through period I am standing back going over exactly what targets I am going to shoot, how I am going to approach the position, when I am going to reload, et al. Programming it into my head so I simply step up and do it.

I may not be able to do walk through the stage itself right before I shoot, nor raise my hands up but those are pretty minor differences particularly when you factor in how simple IDPA stages are.


I'm gonna disagree with you on this. I don't know how much military or LE experience you have going into houses or buildings, but I would like to keep this on the rails of individual competitive shooting sports. Team entry, tactics, sims shoot houses are for a completely different topic.


_____________________________

Semper Fidelis

RIP 17843

Operation Specific Training

Bang, bang, Click
 
Posts: 4633 | Location: surrounded by liberals. | Registered: September 02, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by PPGMD:
quote:
Originally posted by piedrarc:
quote:
Originally posted by PPGMD:
quote:
Originally posted by piedrarc:
I personally prefer IDPA, only cause I cannot stand people air gunning a stage 20 damn times before you shoot.


One of my favorite meme images is pictures of the mock Bin Laden Raid compound with the caption being "SEAL Team Six airguns."



A team insert, raid and extract is hardly a comparison to air gunning a stage at a match. But if that makes someone feel like they are on the same level of a door kicker I guess it's all good.

But I guess they could pick a local shooter from a match to go with them on the raid..... Razz


Actually it is valid comparison. If you have the time and available information extensive planing and walk throughes are what the pros do. Because the pro want to win, which for them is achieving the objective with minimal loss of life. And that doesn't even consider the fact that most team CQB is a half a dozen preplanned tactics that are practiced over and over again.

Besides which IDPA has basically the same thing, you are certainly walking through planning your stage, at least that is what the people that want to win do. And ever after the walk through period I am standing back going over exactly what targets I am going to shoot, how I am going to approach the position, when I am going to reload, et al. Programming it into my head so I simply step up and do it.

I may not be able to do walk through the stage itself right before I shoot, nor raise my hands up but those are pretty minor differences particularly when you factor in how simple IDPA stages are.


I believe you completely missed the point. Completely.

You may notice that Ray made some mention of air gunning the stage 20 times before you shoot it. That is the valid point. It is ridiculous to do so, but we have both seen it aplenty. It is rude, and it holds up the other squads. Some shooters consider themselves royalty and tie up a stage so they can walk through and airgun it 20 times. Hardly anything close to a comparison to DEVGRU.

It is a game, and some people take the air gunning to an absurd extreme. It seems to invite bringing out the natural asshole in people. Not the same as a special ops unit doing work. Not even close.


_______________________________________________________________________
www.opspectraining.com

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011

"There are only two reasons why a proven technique doesn't work under stress: the shooter isn't adequately trained in it's application, or he/she doesn't really believe it will work because he/she is programmed for failure to begin with." BG


 
Posts: 28994 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Persian
Picture of PPGMD
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
I believe you completely missed the point. Completely.

You may notice that Ray made some mention of air gunning the stage 20 times before you shoot it. That is the valid point. It is ridiculous to do so, but we have both seen it aplenty. It is rude, and it holds up the other squads. Some shooters consider themselves royalty and tie up a stage so they can walk through and airgun it 20 times. Hardly anything close to a comparison to DEVGRU.

It is a game, and some people take the air gunning to an absurd extreme. It seems to invite bringing out the natural asshole in people. Not the same as a special ops unit doing work. Not even close.


You won't see that at any of the matches I shoot. They are pretty strict. Which is why I read it as an anti-gamer stuff.

Around here get 5 minutes of the shared walk through. And then you get the time it takes to reset the stage plus maybe a minute or two longer. And you can't steal someone else's walkthrough, they don't even want the resetters to walk through the shooting area on their way down range.


-------
Take your time, I'm hourly.

Mr. Doom and Gloom
"King in the north!"
"Slow is smooth... and also slow.

The opinions posted by this user are his own. And do not represent the opinions of his employer or sponsors.
 
Posts: 19514 | Location: At the wall | Registered: February 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by PPGMD:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
I believe you completely missed the point. Completely.

You may notice that Ray made some mention of air gunning the stage 20 times before you shoot it. That is the valid point. It is ridiculous to do so, but we have both seen it aplenty. It is rude, and it holds up the other squads. Some shooters consider themselves royalty and tie up a stage so they can walk through and airgun it 20 times. Hardly anything close to a comparison to DEVGRU.

It is a game, and some people take the air gunning to an absurd extreme. It seems to invite bringing out the natural asshole in people. Not the same as a special ops unit doing work. Not even close.


You won't see that at any of the matches I shoot. They are pretty strict. Which is why I read it as an anti-gamer stuff.

Around here get 5 minutes of the shared walk through. And then you get the time it takes to reset the stage plus maybe a minute or two longer. And you can't steal someone else's walkthrough, they don't even want the resetters to walk through the shooting area on their way down range.


While you may not see it, it happens quite a bit, and Ray is exactly on in his frustration.

I've been to matches where a "celebrity" will shut down stages for literally an hour so they can air gun it. When the RSO tries to shut them down, they bully them. They try to get a ruling from the match director, they bully them. It is often that they take the easy road by just letting them do what they want.

Over the last year, I have seen the worst that the sport has to offer. This behavior is exactly that.


_______________________________________________________________________
www.opspectraining.com

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011

"There are only two reasons why a proven technique doesn't work under stress: the shooter isn't adequately trained in it's application, or he/she doesn't really believe it will work because he/she is programmed for failure to begin with." BG


 
Posts: 28994 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
"Member"
Picture of cas
posted Hide Post
Well if we're going to nit pick... "...20 mag carriers from forward of the hip bone to the butt crack..."

I'm trying to figure out what division that would/could be? A very skinny person shooting Limited-10?


_____________________________________________________
Your toast has been burnt, and no amount of scraping will remove the black parts.

 
Posts: 13809 | Location: A little box of pine on the 7:29 | Registered: May 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I've tried competitive shooting with shotgun (trap), pistol and archery over the years. I no longer do any of it.

I think that every discipline starts off with good intentions and then the gamers show up. More rules are piled on. Then the rule book benders show up. More enforcement is needed. Then the rule book Nazis show up. Finally, a new discipline is created and the cycle starts over. Yuck.
 
Posts: 5378 | Location: The Red part of Minnesota | Registered: October 06, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by cas:
Well if we're going to nit pick... "...20 mag carriers from forward of the hip bone to the butt crack..."

I'm trying to figure out what division that would/could be? A very skinny person shooting Limited-10?


Ethiopian Nationals. Big Grin


_______________________________________________________________________
www.opspectraining.com

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011

"There are only two reasons why a proven technique doesn't work under stress: the shooter isn't adequately trained in it's application, or he/she doesn't really believe it will work because he/she is programmed for failure to begin with." BG


 
Posts: 28994 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted Hide Post
I believe I’ve figured it out from the context of the comments, but to be sure, what is “air gunning”? Are competitors permitted to walk through stages to see the layouts and practice how they would engage multiple targets? If so, I’m surprised that that sort of thing is permitted in any sort of competition that includes “practical” in its name. (But perhaps I shouldn’t be.)




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 35798 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Unhyphenated American
Picture of Floyd D. Barber
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
I believe I’ve figured it out from the context of the comments, but to be sure, what is “air gunning”? Are competitors permitted to walk through stages to see the layouts and practice how they would engage multiple targets? If so, I’m surprised that that sort of thing is permitted in any sort of competition that includes “practical” in its name. (But perhaps I shouldn’t be.)


Yes, that's what air gunning is.


__________________________________________________________________________________
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
Richard M Nixon

It's nice to be important, it's more important to be nice.
Billy Joe Shaver


NRA Life Member

 
Posts: 4817 | Location: Between the Moon and New York City. | Registered: November 27, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd D. Barber:
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
I believe I’ve figured it out from the context of the comments, but to be sure, what is “air gunning”? Are competitors permitted to walk through stages to see the layouts and practice how they would engage multiple targets? If so, I’m surprised that that sort of thing is permitted in any sort of competition that includes “practical” in its name. (But perhaps I shouldn’t be.)


Yes, that's what air gunning is.


Of course, in a real defensive scenario you get a few tries at air gunning too. Right?
 
Posts: 5378 | Location: The Red part of Minnesota | Registered: October 06, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I'm not laughing
WITH you
Picture of Rolan_Kraps
posted Hide Post
Cowboy Action Shooting!

Get to shoot 4 guns every stage.
Come for the shooting, stay for the people.
Not filled with "Condo Commandos" who take themselves WAY too seriously. I mean, how serious can you be dressed up like a Cowboy?
Family Friendly.




Rolan Kraps
SASS Regulator
Gainesville, Georgia.
NRA Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Instructor - Pistol / Personal Protection Inside the Home
 
Posts: 21272 | Location: Gainesville, GA | Registered: October 11, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd D. Barber:
Yes, that's what air gunning is.


Thank you.

All games have rules, many of which are artificial, but I can certainly see how frustrating the practice would be for considerate competitors when it was abused.

I apologize for the thread drift, but I learned a couple of things.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 35798 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Unhyphenated American
Picture of Floyd D. Barber
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rolan_Kraps:
Cowboy Action Shooting!

Get to shoot 4 guns every stage.
Come for the shooting, stay for the people.
Not filled with "Condo Commandos" who take themselves WAY too seriously. I mean, how serious can you be dressed up like a Cowboy?
Family Friendly.


Plus, you can call yourself Cactus Jack, or Dusty Rhoads..........................


__________________________________________________________________________________
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
Richard M Nixon

It's nice to be important, it's more important to be nice.
Billy Joe Shaver


NRA Life Member

 
Posts: 4817 | Location: Between the Moon and New York City. | Registered: November 27, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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