Discarding sabots - ever used on small arms?

March 24, 2020, 08:08 AM

joel9507

Exercise in speculation, probably.

I don't know why this popped into my mind, but I was thinking about all the heat and friction from bullets engaging with the rifling for guidance and spin, and wondered if there were some way to reduce that to get more performance (i.e. velocity) and still get the bullet guided and spun up.

Then I thought, some tank rounds use sabots, separable bits around the projectile that guide the projectile in the barrel then fall away. Projectile winds up going faster and can be designed around performance on-target (i.e. be a penetration dart, if that's what it takes to defeat the target's armor, e.g.). Might reduce barrel heating too, for long sessions/rapid fire.

Might an approach like that apply to personal weapon calibers? If so, would the cost/complexity fail on economic grounds?

March 24, 2020, 08:11 AM

Voshterkoff

Most of the flechette firing weapons of SPIW and ACR programs did. According to the history books, inconsistencies in the sabot discarding process resulted in poor accuracy on top of poor ballistics.

March 24, 2020, 08:27 AM

RichardC

March 24, 2020, 08:33 AM

egregore

There are shotgun shells that have a smaller (than the shotgun's bore diameter), streamlined bullet in a sabot, for rifled-barrel shotguns only.

March 24, 2020, 08:43 AM

ARMT Guy

.50 cal BMG were the smallest sabot rounds that I've personally seen.

Our ground guys had them sometimes in Afghanistan the last time I was over there but we couldn't fire them from our birds due to the FOD hazard.

March 24, 2020, 09:14 AM

colt_saa

Decades ago, there was a company that offered plastic SABOTs that allowed .222-.224 projectiles to be fired from .30 caliber bores.

They advertised on the old Internet . . . . Shotgun News

Another company that also could be found in the pages of Shotgun News, offered SABOTs for running .308-.311 projectiles in a 50 caliber rifle. These guys had load data that pushed a 150 grain .308 to 5,280 FPS

Obviously the barrel twist will be wrong in most of these combinations and long distance accuracy will suffer severely

But still fun to play with

At the time that Remington offered the Accelerators in various cartridges, the left wing of the Democrat party was crying FOUL since any recovered projectile would not have rifling marks on it making it the NEW bullet of choice for the nefarious segment of the population

March 24, 2020, 09:49 AM

FWP

I have 2 boxes of the Remington's left. I have not shot them in years but if I remember correctly they hit high and did not group well, maybe 2.5" at 100 yards.

March 24, 2020, 10:03 AM

maladat

quote:
Originally posted by colt_saa:
Decades ago, there was a company that offered plastic SABOTs that allowed .222-.224 projectiles to be fired from .30 caliber bores.

They advertised on the old Internet . . . . Shotgun News

Another company that also could be found in the pages of Shotgun News, offered SABOTs for running .308-.311 projectiles in a 50 caliber rifle. These guys had load data that pushed a 150 grain .308 to 5,280 FPS

Obviously the barrel twist will be wrong in most of these combinations and long distance accuracy will suffer severely

But still fun to play with

At the time that Remington offered the Accelerators in various cartridges, the left wing of the Democrat party was crying FOUL since any recovered projectile would not have rifling marks on it making it the NEW bullet of choice for the nefarious segment of the population

These days, they'd probably be worried about the armor piercing potential, too.

My understanding is that ceramic plates work by being harder than the bullet, so the bullet shatters on impact, but the also-common polymer plates work by "catching" the bullets and performance is velocity-dependent.

I suspect a 55 grain bullet going 4000+ fps out of a 30-06 would zip right through a polymer plate.

Of course, there are plenty of other ways to get a bullet going really fast.

March 24, 2020, 10:20 AM

colt_saa

As I am thinking about this, there was also a company that made SABOTs for firing 357 projectiles from a 44 Magnum or similar cartridge

I did load up some 125 JHPs in 44 Magnum cases, but I am not sure if I have my performance results saved anywhere.

At common handgun distances the accuracy was not too bad

March 24, 2020, 10:22 AM

colt_saa

quote:
Originally posted by maladat:
These days, they'd probably be worried about the armor piercing potential, too.

My understanding is that ceramic plates work by being harder than the bullet, so the bullet shatters on impact, but the also-common polymer plates work by "catching" the bullets and performance is velocity-dependent.

I suspect a 55 grain bullet going 4000+ fps out of a 30-06 would zip right through a polymer plate.

Of course, there are plenty of other ways to get a bullet going really fast.

Looked at the place I originally bought then and what do you know, they are still available

https://www.eabco.net/Accelera...ges-100_p_13645.html

March 24, 2020, 11:02 AM

Jim Watson

And of course the Modern Muzzleloaders shoot saboted bullets and fake powder.

There was a shop loading 7.62x25 with saboted .22s. Here is a description and picture:
https://www.thefirearmblog.com...timbs-brief-history/

March 24, 2020, 12:28 PM

cee_Kamp

^^^^^^^
Yeah, My T/C Encore muzzleloader (modern inline) and my T/C Firestorm muzzleloader (flintlock).
Both of them .50 caliber. Both of them use a green Hornady sabot with a Hornady 200 grain .44 cal XTP pistol bullet and two pre-formed 50 grain equivalent Pyrodex powder pellets.
Everyone knows what an Encore is.
The Firestorm is an odd item. And as far as I know, no longer produced.
All stainless, synthetic stock, removable breech plug. Fiber optic iron sights, but drilled and tapped for a scope.
And it's a flintlock.
For me at least, the worst feature on a muzzleloader is one with a non-removable breech plug. That means you have to shoot it to unload it. Then you have to clean it...

March 24, 2020, 01:14 PM

Il Cattivo

quote:
Obviously the barrel twist will be wrong

That seemed to be pretty much what kept the Accelerator from taking off, IIRC. All I know is that the .30-30 versions didn't shoot well at all in Granddad's old Winchester.

March 24, 2020, 03:50 PM

Roguepilot

I tried the 30-06 accelerators on woodchucks (before they checked wood) and went back to 150 grains because they were more curate

March 24, 2020, 04:07 PM

Sunset_Va

Am thinking Reeds Custom Ammo used to have sabot ammo used in the Tokarev caliber or used to offer it.

March 24, 2020, 04:18 PM

Nick B

Remington also made those in 30-30.

March 24, 2020, 04:51 PM

Bisleyblackhawk

quote:
Originally posted by Nick B:
Remington also made those in 30-30.

I did try them as a novelty in my old Marlin...the micro-groove barrel despised them with 10”-12” groups at 50 yards being the norm (on a good day)...that was the end of my “affair” with the Remington Accelerators.

********************************************************

"we've gotta roll with the punches, learn to play all of our hunches
Making the best of what ever comes our way
Forget that blind ambition and learn to trust your intuition
Plowing straight ahead come what may
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March 26, 2020, 06:21 AM

odin

quote:
for rifled-barrel shotguns only

Years ago (maybe 23-25), I got an unbelievable deal on a new Browning Gold shotgun. It had a smooth bore barrel (Duh! Shotgun) and I wanted to use it for deer. At that time, no rifled barrel was available for the shotgun, BUT, a 4" rifled choke tube was available. The salesman offered to let me try it at the range. At 75 feet, that sucker cloverleafed 3 sabotted rounds. I bought it!!!

March 26, 2020, 08:08 AM

Oat_Action_Man

Just the other day, Forgotten Weapons (or InRange?) did a penetration test of a .308 SLAP (saboted light armor piercing) round.

March 26, 2020, 08:33 AM

sigfreund

308 Winchester “Accelerator” on left; handloaded 0.358 caliber bullet in 44 Magnum case on right. The handloaded discarding sabot rounds never performed well for me. The sabots sometimes did not separate from the bullets and recovered sabots were usually severely deformed, indicating that they disrupted the flight of the bullet when it left the barrel. The seller of the sabots claimed good success with his loads, so I don’t know why mine were a failure. There are of course always many variables with a project like that and it’s possible things would have worked better for me if I had found the right ones.