SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  SIG Pistols    **GRAPHIC** This really make me rethink AIWB with a striker gun
Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 

Moderators: Chris Orndorff, LDD
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
**GRAPHIC** This really make me rethink AIWB with a striker gun Login/Join 
Still finding my way
Picture of Ryanp225
posted Hide Post
Sounds like some people should just carry a damned wiffle ball bat if they aren't confident in their handling of a firearm.
 
Posts: 8380 | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I don't think there's any need to insult anyone over their carry choice. It's their choice, after all. The poster is asking about options and reasons behind them, for which he is commended.

One shouldn't carry beyond ones comfort level; this shows good judgement.

Comfort level is often tied to training and proficiency; often what's needed is training from a proper source in order to allow a more informed decision. Until that time, a conservative decision being discretion, is the better part of valor.
 
Posts: 4156 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
As I was working on my P320's over the past couple days - trigger and grip module swaps trying to find the best "fit" for my hand I was thinking.

The P320 is an SAO pistol with a fully cocked striker, period. It is not a DAO, and not a Glock action with a partially cocked striker that is fully cocked during trigger take-up.

With flat triggers and a digital trigger gauge, all 3 of my P320's have less than 5 pound pulls (at the bottom of the trigger near the small lip) and around 1/8" of take up and 1/8" of "break" plus overtravel. So that's 1/4" travel.

My P225A1 DA/SA with hammer cocked is around 5 lbs. It has 1/4" take up, and about 1/8" break and overtravel. So that's 3/8" of travel.

There is a slight difference in the feel of the trigger pull, but from a "safety" point of view, they are about the same.

So would someone please explain how a P320 with a factory flat trigger and no mechanical safety, and a DA/SA Sig with hammer cocked in SA, both with the same trigger pull weight and similar trigger travel (actually more on the P225A1) are any different? From any rational engineering point of view, they are the same.

Yet people would come down hard on someone carrying a DA/SA Sig cocked and "unlocked", and an ND caused by re-holstering without de-cocking would be grievous operator error bordering on incompetence.

It is interesting that the presence of an external hammer, and the ability to see if it is cocked or not, makes more difference to how safe a pistol's manual of arms and carry method are viewed, than the actual pull weight and length of travel of the trigger.

We started with SA semi-autos with mechanical safeties (because the design is simpler), then we invented DA/SA to carry hammer down, with a long heavy first trigger pull but without need for a mechanical safety. Some companies kept the safety as part of the de-cocker (S&W, Beretta), but Sig eliminated it.

In the interim, various other "solutions" were developed:

- HK P7 squeeze cocker provides an SA trigger every time, but without a cocked striker except when gripped.
- FN marketed Hi-Powers with the "safety fast" system that allowed hammer down carry on a cocked SA pistol.
- HK also developed the LEM long travel but light trigger with a break similar to SA
- Para Ordinance had their light double action

And of course Glock's "safe action" partially cocked semi-DAO became the dominant manual of arms. So that's what everyone is making now, and it's what sells.

However, Glock's competitors have mostly used fully cocked strikers with SAO triggers set up to "feel" like a light DAO. Springfield's XD wasn't allowed in competition for a while because it is mechanically an SAO. And the P320, M&P, VP9, PPQ, and many other striker pistols are all really SAO. The CZ P10 is notable since it has a copy of the Glock action, as did the Walther PPS, and perhaps others.

Anyway, I didn't create this conundrum and sequence of contradictions, and I don't have all the answers.

But I would say that re-holstering when carrying IWB and especially AIWB should only be done with the holster removed and the pistol pointed in a safe direction. This is true for any pistol, but especially for striker fired pistols with no manual safety.
 
Posts: 1695 | Location: Indiana | Registered: December 28, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
British by birth,
American by Choice
Picture of Longbow_06
posted Hide Post
And folks say that a cocked and locked 1911 is dangerous lmao.


______________

I will NOT Sit Down !

"There are many who vehemently argue something CAN'T be done.
They should stay out of the way of folks who are doing it."

 
Posts: 3039 | Location: Georgia... 45 Minutes from everywhere....... | Registered: July 05, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Longbow_06:
And folks say that a cocked and locked 1911 is dangerous lmao.



The man questioned, “Sir, do you know that your pistol is cocked?”

“Yes sir, I know it’s cocked,” I replied.

He appeared incredulous and then inquired, “Ain’t that kind of dangerous?”

I answered without hesitation: “If it weren’t dangerous, I wouldn’t be carrying it.”


- Lee Young, Texas Ranger, when carrying a condition 1 1911
 
Posts: 1695 | Location: Indiana | Registered: December 28, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of bcjwriter
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
quote:
Originally posted by Longbow_06:
And folks say that a cocked and locked 1911 is dangerous lmao.



The man questioned, “Sir, do you know that your pistol is cocked?”

“Yes sir, I know it’s cocked,” I replied.

He appeared incredulous and then inquired, “Ain’t that kind of dangerous?”

I answered without hesitation: “If it weren’t dangerous, I wouldn’t be carrying it.”


- Lee Young, Texas Ranger, when carrying a condition 1 1911


Had the same thing happen to me when I was doing some training for our local marines before summer. One Marine was staring at me, and pointed, then ehispered to his friend. I was afraid my fly was down or something until he raised his hand and said - “sir, I just wanted to advise you sir that your sidearm is cocked.”

I answered of course it is - that’s how you carry it. I looked over to a nearby sergeant who had that look of “I pity the future...”.




 
Posts: 1395 | Location: Southern CA | Registered: July 27, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
As I was working on my P320's over the past couple days - trigger and grip module swaps trying to find the best "fit" for my hand I was thinking.

The P320 is an SAO pistol with a fully cocked striker, period. It is not a DAO, and not a Glock action with a partially cocked striker that is fully cocked during trigger take-up.

With flat triggers and a digital trigger gauge, all 3 of my P320's have less than 5 pound pulls (at the bottom of the trigger near the small lip) and around 1/8" of take up and 1/8" of "break" plus overtravel. So that's 1/4" travel.

My P225A1 DA/SA with hammer cocked is around 5 lbs. It has 1/4" take up, and about 1/8" break and overtravel. So that's 3/8" of travel.

There is a slight difference in the feel of the trigger pull, but from a "safety" point of view, they are about the same.

So would someone please explain how a P320 with a factory flat trigger and no mechanical safety, and a DA/SA Sig with hammer cocked in SA, both with the same trigger pull weight and similar trigger travel (actually more on the P225A1) are any different? From any rational engineering point of view, they are the same.

Yet people would come down hard on someone carrying a DA/SA Sig cocked and "unlocked", and an ND caused by re-holstering without de-cocking would be grievous operator error bordering on incompetence.

It is interesting that the presence of an external hammer, and the ability to see if it is cocked or not, makes more difference to how safe a pistol's manual of arms and carry method are viewed, than the actual pull weight and length of travel of the trigger.

We started with SA semi-autos with mechanical safeties (because the design is simpler), then we invented DA/SA to carry hammer down, with a long heavy first trigger pull but without need for a mechanical safety. Some companies kept the safety as part of the de-cocker (S&W, Beretta), but Sig eliminated it.

In the interim, various other "solutions" were developed:

- HK P7 squeeze cocker provides an SA trigger every time, but without a cocked striker except when gripped.
- FN marketed Hi-Powers with the "safety fast" system that allowed hammer down carry on a cocked SA pistol.
- HK also developed the LEM long travel but light trigger with a break similar to SA
- Para Ordinance had their light double action

And of course Glock's "safe action" partially cocked semi-DAO became the dominant manual of arms. So that's what everyone is making now, and it's what sells.

However, Glock's competitors have mostly used fully cocked strikers with SAO triggers set up to "feel" like a light DAO. Springfield's XD wasn't allowed in competition for a while because it is mechanically an SAO. And the P320, M&P, VP9, PPQ, and many other striker pistols are all really SAO. The CZ P10 is notable since it has a copy of the Glock action, as did the Walther PPS, and perhaps others.

Anyway, I didn't create this conundrum and sequence of contradictions, and I don't have all the answers.

But I would say that re-holstering when carrying IWB and especially AIWB should only be done with the holster removed and the pistol pointed in a safe direction. This is true for any pistol, but especially for striker fired pistols with no manual safety.


I quoted this whole post because it's worth re-reading. I agree wholeheartedly.

Earlier this year I took a SIG Armorer's course in order to get certified on the P320 platform. It was offered free to LEOs in my area, so why not? A little less sleep for night shift but free certification? I'm in.

During this course I observed the trigger/striker mechanism for the P320 platform is indeed single-action, and absent an external safety of some sort (safety lever, trigger blade a la Glock, etc..), it is indeed analogous to carrying a cocked-and-locked 1911 with the safety off or a DA/SA SIG with the hammer fully cocked. I later observed my co-worker's P365 to be essentially the same.

This is why I ordered my own P320 Carry with a manual safety in the hopes some day soon my dept. would allow it to be carried on duty. This is also why I ordered my own P365 with manual safety, as there was no way in the fire-y depths of Hades I'd put a P365 AIWB (my preferred carry method for such a small pistol and my particular frame) off-duty without an external safety. MAYBE with a trigger blade safety, but as-is? No way. A personal choice.

Yes, a person could forget to flip the manual safety on when re-holstering either of these pistols. See my earlier post in this thread. Solution is, regardless of platform, training and mindset, but gear does matter, and the firearms world is entertaining some platform designs and carry method combinations I'm just not comfortable with.

Thank God we're living in America where each can choose according to the dictates of their conscience. Smile Pick your platform, have your reasons, train, and go forth and do some good.


________________
tempus edax rerum
 
Posts: 963 | Location: Oregon | Registered: March 18, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
single action, double action, striker.... it doesn't matter. If you point your gun at yourself, you are ignoring a basic rule of safety.


"Living among the enemy behind the Tofu Curtain"
 
Posts: 2012 | Location: California, USA | Registered: January 21, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lefty Sig:

But I would say that re-holstering when carrying IWB and especially AIWB should only be done with the holster removed and the pistol pointed in a safe direction. This is true for any pistol, but especially for striker fired pistols with no manual safety.


That would very nearly negate the point of carry or the holster, especially given that the holster isn't just for carry, but is a place to which one may return the firearm safely.

When I draw from inside the waistband, I do not cover myself with the muzzle. When I wear inside the waistband, I do not cover myself with the muzzlel, and when I return the pistol to a holster inside the waistband, I do not cover any part of myself with the muzzle.

I also look at the holster when holstering, and clear it of fabric, material, holster edges, etc.

When carrying inside the waistband, I normally carry a G32. As you noted, the condition of a Glock is different in the way in which the striker is set, vs. a P320, yet I have no issue with the P320 either. One should certainly exercise the appropriate amount of care in reholstering, as it could be said that the pistol design is less tolerant of carelessness than some, but it's neither necessary to remove the holster to re-holster, nor an act of carelessness to reholster with the holster in place, inside the waistband.

While I do reholster sometimes with a pocket holster, I also sometimes remove the holster from the pocket and place the pistol in the holster, before reinserting both together, in the pocket. The pocket holster may collapse somewhat in use, in which case it's better to simply remove it, than to poke around trying to open it back up. With most inside the waistband holsters, this does not occur.
 
Posts: 4156 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I appreciate all of the commentary on the thread. The elements of my own choices are in my posts to add context, only, not to suggest better answers (I just have questions).


For the trail:

A couple of posters have suggested that DAO revolvers may represent the safest MOA when considering accidental firing. I couldn't agree more and this format is very familiar to me. Available calibers are also more suited for large predators - no doubt about it. Concealment and capacity are hindered as well (I've toyed with speed loaders and I'd be better off spinning plates).

I sincerely embrace the notion that carrying an auto-loader in any other condition than "loaded" raises issues of readiness (the shooter), application, and usefulness. Got it.

So, I'll just offer this for amusement:

On a recent warm-weather excursion (desert), I took a brief respite in some shade for an afternoon break and was passed on the trail by a runner - stripped down to shoes, shorts, and what appeared to be a Glock bobbing up and down in a loosely-attached AIWB - no water, no hat, and sunburned to Chernobyl hues of red. I immediately felt like a seasoned expert, but of course, I'm not.

Trail work in and out of bureaucratically posted land is a compromise (open-carry restrictions). Terrain challenges and the occasional slip also pose safety of arms considerations that more often than not trump firearms readiness, IMO (non-tacticle, non-combat).

These issues aren't new and many of you have answered them in your own way and for that input, I appreciate the posts. The poor fellow who performed surgery upon himself with a round to the leg (thread topic) would have died in anything but the luckiest of circumstances and most definitely anywhere near my playground.

Thanks-
 
Posts: 8 | Registered: November 03, 2019Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I've taken maybe half dozen classes shooting from AIWB. Reholstering with a gun and holster en bloc would've reduced the time spent training by, I dunno, 75%?

Selecting appropriate holster and training appropriate reholstering technique eliminates active self muzzling. You need to know what you're doing.

T-shirt getting inside the trigger guard 9 out of 10 times means that the user wore an undershirt between body and holster. You don't do that with junk carry; AIWB rigs go on the naked body. When I train up, I have a big bruise in there, and every educated AIWBer I know has nail clippers as a part of their range bag. Some EDC them.

It is a riskier mode, no doubt. It is regretful that very few people know dos and don't, and even fewer teach that.
 
Posts: 321 | Registered: April 03, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
posted Hide Post
The speedy hot thing comes out the flashy bang hole on the end. If the flashy bang hole is pointed at you, the speedy hot thing that comes out will hit you when it goes “boom!” and it will tear new holes in you. Simple concepts to embrace. You buy your ticket and take your chances when you’re tall enough for the ride. Being inattentive while holstering and/or not being vigilant in maintaining your holster can cause lifelong or fatal results, no matter the gun or the holster.

Know your equipment, and how to use it together safely. Rush at your peril.
 
Posts: 10610 | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of sigmoid
posted Hide Post
You have to be a flat belly to carry AIWB
- I have no worries


__________________________________________________
-Whenever I’m frustrated at my job I remember, Hilliary Clinton has a gynecologist
 
Posts: 974 | Location: Idaho | Registered: July 07, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fly High, A.J.
Picture of tk13
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sigmoid:
You have to be a flat belly to carry AIWB
- I have no worries


This for me as well. With my gut, I'll never have to worry about shooting myself in the pecker.
 
Posts: 1393 | Location: Northern Ky | Registered: March 23, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
appendix carry is one of the worst conventions to ever come along in defensive carry

take a loaded weapon and point it at your nads and femoral artery and draw in a controlled manner under extreme stress

how about .... no

i think i heard something about never pointing a loaded weapon at anything you don't intend to shoot.

------------------------------------------------


Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
 
Posts: 7501 | Location: Florida | Registered: September 20, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The guy behind the guy
Picture of esdunbar
posted Hide Post
I never would have guessed that this thread would turn into an anti AIWB thread. color me shocked.

if you AWIB, you're like a Trump supporter...you'd rather lie on the poll call than deal with the BS. if you do AWIB, I would recommend taking the holster off before reholstering and then putting the whole rig back on.

I see so many vids of instructors drawing and reholstering AIWB rather nonchalantly and it makes me cringe. they may have cleared and made safe they guns before hand, but I see plenty where they are still hot.

It teaches people subconsciously to just slap it back in the holster. Take your time, do it safely. the extra 8 seconds it takes to remove the holster first could save your balls!


E.S. Dunbar
________________________________
I'm confused...wait, maybe I'm not.
 
Posts: 7025 | Location: Toledo, Ohio | Registered: April 19, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
posted Hide Post
Its a free country - point a loaded gun at your balls / privates, or don't.

It's not going to be my privates shot off when you fuck it up.
 
Posts: 43537 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
I don't think there's any need to insult anyone over their carry choice. It's their choice, after all. The poster is asking about options and reasons behind them, for which he is commended.

One shouldn't carry beyond ones comfort level; this shows good judgement.

Comfort level is often tied to training and proficiency; often what's needed is training from a proper source in order to allow a more informed decision. Until that time, a conservative decision being discretion, is the better part of valor.



SNS, I couldn't have said that better-
However, and here's where a huge problem lies: Some people overestimate their level.
That's where and when they get into trouble.

As an instructor, part of the job is to keep and make customers, a source of revenue. How receptive are the customers going to be if the instructor says "No man, you suck. You seriously suck." And on the flip side of that coin, some people can't handle the truth. They just refuse to believe that they suck.


IMHO- as far as this incident. I'm not going to judge or comment on what the guy did in going outside to investigate.
True, if he didn't go outside, this would have never happened.
Or... Would this have happened at a different time?
Could this have happened tomorrow when he was re-holstering his gun after teaching a class?

Do we know exactly how the gun went bang? Or are we assuming that something (clothes) got caught in the trigger? Did the guy keep his booger hook on the bang button when he re-holstered? Did he miss his holster?

Then there's the "shit happens" factor. Because shit, does in fact happen.

Let's all be really honest with each other and ourselves right now-
Carrying a gun has a level of danger.
What's one of the tenants of gun safety? Don't point it at anything you don't wish to destroy?
Sometimes that gun gets pointed at yourself, or someone else.
Holstering, drawing, moving...

"Shit happens"


AIWB, IWB, OTW, Shoulder, Chest rig... All have a certain level of danger.
Sure, we all try (or at least be cognizant of) to reduce that number to zero, but "shit happens".


_____________________________________________________________________

"When its time to shoot, shoot. Dont talk!"

“What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.” —Author Tom Clancy
 
Posts: 5827 | Location: Attempting to keep the noise down around Midway Airport | Registered: February 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by CPD SIG:
However, and here's where a huge problem lies: Some people overestimate their level.
That's where and when they get into trouble.

.


I'd venture to say that a LARGE percentage of the shooting community falls into this neat little box. They try a drill or skill 10 times, get it right once or twice and consider that skill mastered.

For instance, I have a few classes that have very specific prerequisites. Few people can meet them on the first day. Very few. When you speak to them about it, they state that they go out, do the drill a few times, get it right maybe once or twice, and they are good. I then tell them that wasn't skill, it was luck.

Mastering a skill means that you can do it 9 times out of 10 or better. People think that all of their skills are much better than they are. This is specifically true of coppers. Most are ghetto gunfighters until you place them out of their narrow comfort zone. And then the excuses start to flow.

I believe that guys that compete do better at managing their ego versus their skill level. That isn't hard and fast, but as a general rule I think they better know what they are capable of.


_______________________________________________________________________
www.opspectraining.com

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 33177 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by CPD SIG:



As an instructor, part of the job is to keep and make customers, a source of revenue. How receptive are the customers going to be if the instructor says "No man, you suck. You seriously suck." And on the flip side of that coin, some people can't handle the truth. They just refuse to believe that they suck.



If you structure a class correctly, you don't have to say anything. Incorporation of a repetitive skill testing in front of entire class does it for you. Running a daily test at the Rogers, or twice a day FAST like late TLG did or EL is doing now, Gabe White administering his standards both days of the class, etc puts people in their places very well. If Stoeger runs a test stage in his class in 18 sec with two Cs and a production gun at his casual pace, and best I do is 20 with two misses, an optic, and a big mag, he really doesn't need to say anything to me, let alone to a guy who runs that stage in 35 sec.
If an instructor goes at length to be able to issue certificates of achievement and certificates of attendance, based on the in-class performance, on the last day of the class, the message is sent.

quote:
Originally posted by CPD SIG:

.....Do we know exactly how the gun went bang? Or are we assuming that something (clothes) got caught in the trigger?


There is no assumption, there is a repost on page 3 of the NAR post, T-shirt inside the trigger guard.
As I posted above, most of those happen because people can't handle a little irritation and decide to wear an undershirt under that holster, which is a no go with AIWB. Some of those are because of incomplete garment clearance, and some of them because of an absolute stupidity of using tuckable AIWB holsters and AIWB holsters with weapon lights. Either way, user error.
 
Posts: 321 | Registered: April 03, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2 3 4 5 6  
 

SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  SIG Pistols    **GRAPHIC** This really make me rethink AIWB with a striker gun

© SIGforum 2019