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**GRAPHIC** This really make me rethink AIWB with a striker gun Login/Join 
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Yikes. That leg shot reminds me of that knife attack picture with the LEO who had his back all slashed up. Nasty to see, but a good reminder of what these tools can do.

SIG P365 with manual safety in a kydex AIWB holster checks enough boxes for me to carry it. To each their own. Anyone can screw something up, regardless of the levels of protection or redundancy. Train train train, + Mindset. And lots of prayer. Smile

Glad this guy is okay. That'll be one hell of a scar.


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tempus edax rerum
 
Posts: 1110 | Location: Oregon | Registered: March 18, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by GeoJelly:
powermad’s post provides a lot of insight. Regardless of position, or condition, of carrying – poor Drew unnecessarily, in my opinion, went outside and placed himself in danger. Then, he made matters even worse with an apparent quick holstering of his Glock. I have gotten to be an old guy using common sense as my first line of defense. It is easy to be an armchair quarterback, but there is no way I would have gone outside, after dark, to investigate a commotion. Shots fired or screaming out there? If my family members were all still safe, then, I would have called the police.
Abso-fracking-lootly.
 
Posts: 45798 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
That rug really tied
the room together.
Picture of bubbatime
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Yep, tried to play cop, when he had no right to, and got Glocked in the process.


______________________________________________________
Often times a very small man can cast a very large shadow
 
Posts: 5805 | Location: Floriduh | Registered: October 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
E tan e epi tas
Picture of cslinger
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I am high drag and low speed and this is one of the reasons I like hammer fired autos. I can ride the hammer home with my thumb which will let me know movement or a failure to decock etc.

As with all things I am not saying I am right only that I am right for me.

I also cringe at AIWB. Something about pointing a gun at my femoral artery or dick doesn’t sit well with me. Again not right, just right for me.

Take care, shoot safe.
Chris


"Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man."
 
Posts: 5238 | Location: On the water | Registered: July 25, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of bcjwriter
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I am not a fan of AIWB. This is why.




 
Posts: 1478 | Location: Southern CA | Registered: July 27, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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TrailWalker:
Welcome to the Forum.
Just a suggestion, but you might want to seek out some force on force type training or cognitive reaction training (MILO or VirTa). What you will take away from this type of training is a greater understanding of the speed in which confrontation can occur. Racking the gun to load the chamber, no matter how fast you can make it happen, adds an action that takes time you may desperately need to end your confrontation.

If you are uncomfortable with chamber loaded carry and you are in a woods or hiking type situation, a double action auto pistol or double action revolver may better suit your needs.
Consider this: Many of the encounters I have read about involving animal attack evolve very quickly, at very close ranges, with the animals moving at high speeds and overwhelming force. Often, those attacked end up on the ground in a desperate fight to survive. So.. ask yourself this: Can I keep my feet long enough to draw and rack the slide? Can I keep both hands free to rack the gun if I am in a ground fight with an attacking animal?
FYI: My woods gun is a Ruger Blackhawk .357 with a heavy Underwood load.
I have been training with single action revolvers since I was in my teens and am now in my 60s. I feel proficient enough with an SA revolver,but I dont recommend it others who lack experience with it.
Again, welcome aboard.


End of Earth: 2 Miles
Upper Peninsula: 4 Miles
 
Posts: 10784 | Location: Marquette MI | Registered: July 08, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I like appendix carry. I can access the gun with either hand and, it’s very easy to conceal.

I only carry a P239 DAK or a revolver. Any gun that has enough stored energy, in normal carry mode, to fire is not one Id carry that way. Even with a safety.
 
Posts: 797 | Location: DFW Metroplex | Registered: April 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oriental Redneck
Picture of 12131
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quote:
Originally posted by arcwelder76:
quote:
Originally posted by 12131:
quote:
Originally posted by Sig2340:
quote:
Originally posted by 12131:

Carry chamber empty = 100% idiot proof.



You underestimate the ingenuity of the idiots out there.

Oh no, I'm not. I'm only discussing this particular scenario. Chamber empty when holstering = No bang, even if you are a 7th degree black belt idiot.


If you're not comfortable carrying with one in the pipe, you probably should not be carrying a gun. You will not have enough time to chamber a round, should you ever actually need to use the pistol. Certainly not unless you practice every day, and then only maybe. Things will happen very fast, and that time you spend chambering a round is an eternity.

If you're preaching to me, it's unnecessary, since I always carry chamber loaded. My point was simply to address BBMW's contention that there is no way to make the gun idiot proof. Since what we are talking in this thread is about reholstering without going bang, my contention is that there is a 100% absolute surefire way of achieving that, and that is reholstering with nothing in chamber.

People carry however they carry, I don't care. I'm not going to be holier-than-though and preach that they shouldn't be carrying a gun because they carry chamber empty.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 12131,
 
Posts: 20195 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by TrailWalker:
So:

I carry a 320x Compact with a full mag, alternating cartridges, empty chamber. I practice a C-clamp, off-hand racking out of my OWB holster, and never re-holster with a loaded chamber or a dangling jacket or pack strap in the way.


I have no idea what a "c-clamp off-hand racking" is, but what's the rationale behind "alternating cartridges?" Do you mean you alternate two different types of ammunition in your magazine?
 
Posts: 5094 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by YooperSigs:
TrailWalker:
Welcome to the Forum.
Just a suggestion, but you might want to seek out some force on force type training or cognitive reaction training (MILO or VirTa). What you will take away from this type of training is a greater understanding of the speed in which confrontation can occur. Racking the gun to load the chamber, no matter how fast you can make it happen, adds an action that takes time you may desperately need to end your confrontation.

If you are uncomfortable with chamber loaded carry and you are in a woods or hiking type situation, a double action auto pistol or double action revolver may better suit your needs.
Consider this: Many of the encounters I have read about involving animal attack evolve very quickly, at very close ranges, with the animals moving at high speeds and overwhelming force. Often, those attacked end up on the ground in a desperate fight to survive. So.. ask yourself this: Can I keep my feet long enough to draw and rack the slide? Can I keep both hands free to rack the gun if I am in a ground fight with an attacking animal?
FYI: My woods gun is a Ruger Blackhawk .357 with a heavy Underwood load.
I have been training with single action revolvers since I was in my teens and am now in my 60s. I feel proficient enough with an SA revolver,but I dont recommend it others who lack experience with it.
Again, welcome aboard.


All good points; thank you.
 
Posts: 24 | Registered: November 03, 2019Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by TrailWalker:
So:

I carry a 320x Compact with a full mag, alternating cartridges, empty chamber. I practice a C-clamp, off-hand racking out of my OWB holster, and never re-holster with a loaded chamber or a dangling jacket or pack strap in the way.


I have no idea what a "c-clamp off-hand racking" is, but what's the rationale behind "alternating cartridges?" Do you mean you alternate two different types of ammunition in your magazine?


Hi - A former instructor referred to racking the pistol with an overhand grip (thumb pointed toward chest) in this manner.

Cartridges: Jacketed, hollow point, jacketed, etc.; Yes, loaded alternatively in the mag. I frequent areas where there are both black bear and cougar. While a 9mm round certainly isn't the best for black bear, jacketed ammo seems to be recommended as a compromise. Hollow points with a performance load - cougar.

In my application, encounters potentially benefiting from having a firearm at the ready have been very rare. I have had a few, but in no case was it necessary (or even recommended) to fire. It would, however, be uncomfortable not to have one along. Thus, the more easily-carried pistol rather than an ideal hunting weapon.

Edit: One other point that has driven the choice of pistol in my case - some areas that I transit do not permit open-carry, so concealment is necessary. This also narrows the choices of easily-carried guns. It's a compromise scenario, to be sure.

Open to all suggestions based upon experiences.

Thanks-
 
Posts: 24 | Registered: November 03, 2019Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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A few comments in response to the questions.

I have experimented to determine how much extra time it took to get a shot fired starting with an empty chamber (i.e.., the so-called “Israeli” method) versus with the chamber loaded. Using a standard DA/SA P229 pistol and drawing from concealment, having to manually cycle the slide first before engaging a target at close range added an average of about 1/3 (0.3) second to the time to fire an effective shot.

That in itself doesn’t seem like much extra time because it isn’t. But one significant issue that the average 1/3 second difference in time between cycling the slide and not did not reflect, however, was the fact that many times when attempting to retract the slide to chamber a round I fumbled the effort and didn’t get the round chambered at all. When that happened, the time necessary to get a shot off increased to two or three times what was required when everything went as planned, and those times weren’t included in calculating the averages. What’s more, that experiment was conducted 14 years ago at age 59 when my hands were stronger and less affected by arthritis. Today those fumbled efforts would undoubtedly be more frequent and take longer to correct.

And of course, the experiment’s trials were all conducted when I was fully prepared to act when the start time sounded. What happens when an attack occurs without warning or we’re engaged in doing something else that occupies one or both hands? What if we’re wearing gloves? Those things will obviously affect our defensive actions regardless of whether our weapon has a round in the chamber, but being able to chamber a round first may be affected to a much greater degree, and possibly to the point of not being able to fire at all.

There is no good reason to not carry a modern pistol with a round chambered if we are using a proper holster and employing proper handling techniques. I don’t agree with the smug, “If you don’t trust your gun, you shouldn’t be carrying at all,” but I do believe that if we don’t trust our gun that we should learn more about it so we know why we can trust it.

The practice of alternating ammunition types in a pistol magazine doesn’t get too much discussion these days, and possibly because more people recognize that it’s not a good idea.

If I believed that I might want bullets that will penetrate as deeply as possible, why would I mix them up with loads that might not be effective as they could be? How do I know that I’ll be able to fire multiple shots that hit the target in a defensive situation? If I manage to get only one hit, I will want it to be as effective as possible. If I can obtain multiple hits, I will want each one to be as effective as possible. And keep in mind that when it comes to neutralizing human threats, very few of us will ever be faced with a fanatical attacker who must be shot to pieces before he will stop.

And as for large animals, I must disagree with the belief that lightweight, low-powered hollow point bullets would be best, even for an animal like a mountain lion. Countless hunters for as long as I can remember throughout my many decades have stressed the need for deep, or at least adequate, penetration first and foremost. Animals aren’t deterred by being shot in the same way as humans. If my primary self-defense concern was large predators, I would make every effort to obtain a gun more suited for the purpose than a 9mm autoloader. If that wasn’t an option, then at least I would have it loaded with the most potent nonexpanding ammunition I could find.




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 42447 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of HayesGreener
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There is a BIG training regimen involved with safely drawing and holstering a firearm. A level III holster for example requires a minimum of 200 training draws before it is carried for duty. With proper dry practice that number should run into the thousands. Concealed carry holsters require just as much if not more training so that garments and carry methods are not creating an ND hazard. Concealment must be balanced against the need for safety and the need for quick access to the firearm. Holster management is often neglected or inadequate in training plans. Practice should imbed permanent motor memory for drawing and re-holstering, and there is NO TIME LIMIT for re-holstering.

I have been an instructor since 1971. Despite training and thoughtful gun and holster design, ND's in and around holsters happen with monotonous regularity, year after year. It's always a surprise and usually due to a combination of unanticipated factors leading up to the gunshot. Often involving "experienced" gun folks. Kind of like plane crashes involving experienced pilots. You can never become complacent.

I know it has become a popular carry method, but I have a visceral aversion to appendix carry because the gun is pointed at your femoral artery and your fun gear. Except for armed professionals where it is necessary for duty, and with A LOT of training, I would never recommend appendix carry.


CMSGT USAF (Retired)
Chief of Police (Retired)
Florida Class K Licensed Instructor
NRA Certified LE Handgun/Shotgun/Rifle Instructor
SIG and Glock and Springfield 1911 Armorer
 
Posts: 3375 | Location: Florida Panhandle | Registered: September 27, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
A few comments in response to the questions.

I have experimented to determine how much extra time it took to get a shot fired starting with an empty chamber (i.e.., the so-called “Israeli” method) versus with the chamber loaded. Using a standard DA/SA P229 pistol and drawing from concealment, having to manually cycle the slide first before engaging a target at close range added an average of about 1/3 (0.3) second to the time to fire an effective shot.

That in itself doesn’t seem like much extra time because it isn’t. But one significant issue that the average 1/3 second difference in time between cycling the slide and not did not reflect, however, was the fact that many times when attempting to retract the slide to chamber a round I fumbled the effort and didn’t get the round chambered at all. When that happened, the time necessary to get a shot off increased to two or three times what was required when everything went as planned, and those times weren’t included in calculating the averages. What’s more, that experiment was conducted 14 years ago at age 59 when my hands were stronger and less affected by arthritis. Today those fumbled efforts would undoubtedly be more frequent and take longer to correct.

And of course, the experiment’s trials were all conducted when I was fully prepared to act when the start time sounded. What happens when an attack occurs without warning or we’re engaged in doing something else that occupies one or both hands? What if we’re wearing gloves? Those things will obviously affect our defensive actions regardless of whether our weapon has a round in the chamber, but being able to chamber a round first may be affected to a much greater degree, and possibly to the point of not being able to fire at all.

There is no good reason to not carry a modern pistol with a round chambered if we are using a proper holster and employing proper handling techniques. I don’t agree with the smug, “If you don’t trust your gun, you shouldn’t be carrying at all,” but I do believe that if we don’t trust our gun that we should learn more about it so we know why we can trust it.

The practice of alternating ammunition types in a pistol magazine doesn’t get too much discussion these days, and possibly because more people recognize that it’s not a good idea.

If I believed that I might want bullets that will penetrate as deeply as possible, why would I mix them up with loads that might not be effective as they could be? How do I know that I’ll be able to fire multiple shots that hit the target in a defensive situation? If I manage to get only one hit, I will want it to be as effective as possible. If I can obtain multiple hits, I will want each one to be as effective as possible. And keep in mind that when it comes to neutralizing human threats, very few of us will ever be faced with a fanatical attacker who must be shot to pieces before he will stop.

And as for large animals, I must disagree with the belief that lightweight, low-powered hollow point bullets would be best, even for an animal like a mountain lion. Countless hunters for as long as I can remember throughout my many decades have stressed the need for deep, or at least adequate, penetration first and foremost. Animals aren’t deterred by being shot in the same way as humans. If my primary self-defense concern was large predators, I would make every effort to obtain a gun more suited for the purpose than a 9mm autoloader. If that wasn’t an option, then at least I would have it loaded with the most potent nonexpanding ammunition I could find.


Excellent points and very well explained!

Thank you-
 
Posts: 24 | Registered: November 03, 2019Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by HayesGreener:
There is a BIG training regimen involved with safely drawing and holstering a firearm. A level III holster for example requires a minimum of 200 training draws before it is carried for duty. With proper dry practice that number should run into the thousands. Concealed carry holsters require just as much if not more training so that garments and carry methods are not creating an ND hazard. Concealment must be balanced against the need for safety and the need for quick access to the firearm. Holster management is often neglected or inadequate in training plans. Practice should imbed permanent motor memory for drawing and re-holstering, and there is NO TIME LIMIT for re-holstering.

I have been an instructor since 1971. Despite training and thoughtful gun and holster design, ND's in and around holsters happen with monotonous regularity, year after year. It's always a surprise and usually due to a combination of unanticipated factors leading up to the gunshot. Often involving "experienced" gun folks. Kind of like plane crashes involving experienced pilots. You can never become complacent.

I know it has become a popular carry method, but I have a visceral aversion to appendix carry because the gun is pointed at your femoral artery and your fun gear. Except for armed professionals where it is necessary for duty, and with A LOT of training, I would never recommend appendix carry.


Your post reflects much of my focus regarding holstered carry with the P320 (since it is quite new to me). I grew up with revolvers but since getting pretty serious with wilderness activities, have been through a number of different firearm formats.

In my mind, falling with the weapon strapped on and holstering errors represent the potential RED ZONES for my application. I have been practicing with both a dummy and my carry weapon at the range, with instruction and without, with obstructive clothing as well.

Your points are very well taken. I find that getting the weapon out with trail gear on is reasonably done with practice. Re-holstering just isn't going to happen until there is no dust in the air. Even religious practice with left-handed clothing clearing and right-handed weapon handling isn't where I think it should be.

OWB, 4 o'clock. Appendix - no (as in "NFW")

Thank you very much -
 
Posts: 24 | Registered: November 03, 2019Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by TrailWalker:
Hi - A former instructor referred to racking the pistol with an overhand grip (thumb pointed toward chest) in this manner.


There are various ways to cycle the slide. Hand over the pistol does offer a leverage advantage, but it's chief purpose is clearing a stovepipe malfunction in which a case is protruding from the ejection port. The slide can be cycled aft while brushing the stovepiped case out of the way. It's one method.

quote:
Originally posted by TrailWalker:

Cartridges: Jacketed, hollow point, jacketed, etc.; Yes, loaded alternatively in the mag. I frequent areas where there are both black bear and cougar. While a 9mm round certainly isn't the best for black bear, jacketed ammo seems to be recommended as a compromise. Hollow points with a performance load - cougar.


Hollow point bullets are designed to expand. Expansion increases drag and limits penetration. The myth is that a hollow point bullet cuts a bigger channel, causing more blood loss; the reality is that an expanded bullet isn't that much bigger than one that doesn't expand. The actual purpose of the bullet is to perforate the target. The shot is to penetrate bone and barriers, and to penetrate vital organs such as heart and lungs, or cause central nervous system damaage.

Don't worry about expansion: be concerned with shot placement.

I've heard a lot of wild ideas for hiking, such as alternating defensive rounds with snake shot, and I always have to wonder if the person is planning on firing every other round at a snake.

In my opinion, an unloaded firearm is a paperweight. Not only are you adding time to cycle and load the weapon, but you're not getting it on target during that time, or even driving the front sight to your target. You're adding an extra step; one more failure point, one more action that one could forget, short cycle, or otherwise complicate the matter, when already under stress.

I would strongly suggest that if your comfort level isn't up to carrying the pistol chambered, that it's worth investing in some competent instruction to imbue that confidence.

I'd also suggest choosing your ammunition with consistency, rather than alternating it. Ammunition which can be placed accurately and which penetrates enough to do vital damage is what's needed.
 
Posts: 5094 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by TrailWalker:
Hi - A former instructor referred to racking the pistol with an overhand grip (thumb pointed toward chest) in this manner.


There are various ways to cycle the slide. Hand over the pistol does offer a leverage advantage, but it's chief purpose is clearing a stovepipe malfunction in which a case is protruding from the ejection port. The slide can be cycled aft while brushing the stovepiped case out of the way. It's one method.

quote:
Originally posted by TrailWalker:

Cartridges: Jacketed, hollow point, jacketed, etc.; Yes, loaded alternatively in the mag. I frequent areas where there are both black bear and cougar. While a 9mm round certainly isn't the best for black bear, jacketed ammo seems to be recommended as a compromise. Hollow points with a performance load - cougar.


Hollow point bullets are designed to expand. Expansion increases drag and limits penetration. The myth is that a hollow point bullet cuts a bigger channel, causing more blood loss; the reality is that an expanded bullet isn't that much bigger than one that doesn't expand. The actual purpose of the bullet is to perforate the target. The shot is to penetrate bone and barriers, and to penetrate vital organs such as heart and lungs, or cause central nervous system damaage.

Don't worry about expansion: be concerned with shot placement.

I've heard a lot of wild ideas for hiking, such as alternating defensive rounds with snake shot, and I always have to wonder if the person is planning on firing every other round at a snake.

In my opinion, an unloaded firearm is a paperweight. Not only are you adding time to cycle and load the weapon, but you're not getting it on target during that time, or even driving the front sight to your target. You're adding an extra step; one more failure point, one more action that one could forget, short cycle, or otherwise complicate the matter, when already under stress.

I would strongly suggest that if your comfort level isn't up to carrying the pistol chambered, that it's worth investing in some competent instruction to imbue that confidence.

I'd also suggest choosing your ammunition with consistency, rather than alternating it. Ammunition which can be placed accurately and which penetrates enough to do vital damage is what's needed.


I really appreciate the points.

Thanks!
 
Posts: 24 | Registered: November 03, 2019Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of bcjwriter
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by HayesGreener:
There is a BIG training regimen involved with safely drawing and holstering a firearm. A level III holster for example requires a minimum of 200 training draws before it is carried for duty. With proper dry practice that number should run into the thousands. Concealed carry holsters require just as much if not more training so that garments and carry methods are not creating an ND hazard. Concealment must be balanced against the need for safety and the need for quick access to the firearm. Holster management is often neglected or inadequate in training plans. Practice should imbed permanent motor memory for drawing and re-holstering, and there is NO TIME LIMIT for re-holstering.

I have been an instructor since 1971. Despite training and thoughtful gun and holster design, ND's in and around holsters happen with monotonous regularity, year after year. It's always a surprise and usually due to a combination of unanticipated factors leading up to the gunshot. Often involving "experienced" gun folks. Kind of like plane crashes involving experienced pilots. You can never become complacent.

I know it has become a popular carry method, but I have a visceral aversion to appendix carry because the gun is pointed at your femoral artery and your fun gear. Except for armed professionals where it is necessary for duty, and with A LOT of training, I would never recommend appendix carry.


This ^^^^^ . I have been a firearms instructor for over 24 years, and this is the truest thing being said. ND's happen, if you really want to carry AIWB with a striker fired (or any) pistol, it requires significant practice to off-set the risks as much as possible - and that is never 100%.




 
Posts: 1478 | Location: Southern CA | Registered: July 27, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ignored facts
still exist
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by YooperSigs:
TrailWalker:
Welcome to the Forum.

{snip}

If you are uncomfortable with chamber loaded carry and you are in a woods or hiking type situation, a double action auto pistol or double action revolver may better suit your needs.


FWIW, that's been my choice for almost 4 decades. Suits me fine. A man's got to know his limitations, and I know mine.


.
 
Posts: 8755 | Location: The Beaver State | Registered: February 28, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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When it comes to chamber empty carry or "Israeli" method, most people just focus on the time factor even to the exclusion of anything else.

I don't think "time" matters at all. To an un-trained person it is an unlikely to matter fraction of a second and to a well-practiced person it adds no time at all.

The big problem is that it either requires the use of both hands and space (each things you may not have in a fast close quarter assault), or it requires you to do a single hand chamber method...not on the range, but in the midst of getting shot, stabbed or beaten.

That is why I wouldn't consider it, even for hiking. Cougar pounces on you and you not only have to get the gun into play but chamber it? No thanks.




“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik

The world's a dangerous place, we can help! http://portlandfirearmtraining.com/
 
Posts: 4768 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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