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**GRAPHIC** This really make me rethink AIWB with a striker gun Login/Join 
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The impact of a manual safety on deploying the gun is vastly less than carrying chamber empty. Everything is a trade off. Given the vast number of times that a carrier will handle his gun loaded in a non-defensive situation, vs the ever so slight possibility of a defensive presentation, the chances of a brain fart causing an AD/ND is vastly higher than a brain fart causing a non-discharge in a defensive situation.

And anyone who thinks, no matter how good they consider their gun handling procedures, that they can't have a brain fart, is deluding themselves. How many posts have we seen on here of members' mea culpas about blowing a hole in a floor or wall in their house. And that's only those who've admitted it.

The OP didn't state what gun it was. So I looked for the original post. It was a Glock 19. So this is a very graphic example of Glock Leg. Below is the original Instagram post for any interested.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B4X2xoNJWDx/

quote:
Originally posted by 12131:
quote:
Originally posted by BBMW:
Agreed. Noting makes a gun completely idiot proof. However, it can be make more idiot resistant.

Without a safety, a striker gun has a single point of failure (and a pretty easy to actuate point of failure) for brain fart. With a safety, the idiot needs to daisy chain two brain farts to have an catastrophic outcome. This makes it exponentially less likely to happen.

quote:
Originally posted by 12131:
quote:
Originally posted by BBMW:
Every once in a while, I state my affinity for safeties on striker guns. I usually get a fair amount of static for this. But if this guy had a safety on his gun and used it, he likely wouldn't have sustained this injury.

You want manual safety for your striker, fine, but don't make excuse for someone's carelessness.

Carry chamber empty = 100% idiot proof.

Anything else is a risk. Yes, I agree that manual safety makes it less risky but is never 100% safe, because anything mechanical can fail, however unlikely. So, it's back to the brain and not the tool. It should never be "Since I have 10 safeties on this gun, I can afford to be a little careless". Don't put 100% of your faith on mechanical safeties. There is a reason that anyone with a rational brain would never look down a loaded barrel, even with all the safeties on.
 
Posts: 19232 | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 12131:
Carry chamber empty = 100% idiot proof.
Until you need the weapon to save your life.
 
Posts: 43546 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oriental Redneck
Picture of 12131
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quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
quote:
Originally posted by 12131:
Carry chamber empty = 100% idiot proof.
Until you need the weapon to save your life.

Idiot's problem ain't my problem. Wink
 
Posts: 18567 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Step by step walk the thousand mile road
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quote:
Originally posted by 12131:

Carry chamber empty = 100% idiot proof.



You underestimate the ingenuity of the idiots out there.





Nice is overrated

"It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government."
Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018

 
Posts: 28566 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Not One of
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
No image or not, these days I wince at the term "experienced instructor" more than AIWB. That is one instance, where I'd venture to say that as popular as AIWB is that it is used by thousands of people daily.

"Experienced Instructor" is a meaningless term to me that equals "someone who has been fooling people out of the money for a while now".


This ^^

The NRA instructor program has made a joke out of the term. I don't mean that as an insult to those folks out there who hold that certification. I mean to insult those people who are the bare minimum standards type of instructor who cannot or will not go further with their instructor education.
 
Posts: 3631 | Location: OK | Registered: August 15, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by dwd1985:
When reholstering a loaded gun into my IWB holster, I always slowly move my trigger finger forward off the frame into the trigger guard but behind the trigger, preventing any rearward movement. I leave it there as long as possible as I insert the weapon into the holster. Then I remove my finger and slide the pistol the rest of the way in. Really takes all of the concern out of the exercise.


Hold on a tic. You remove your finger from the frame, a global, universal practice for ensuring the weapon is safe, and place your finger inside the trigger guard, behind the trigger???

What could go wrong?
 
Posts: 4156 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
You point a loaded gun at yourself and you might shoot yourself. Its a potential outcome with a risk associated it.

If you do it a lot, the odds of you shooting yourself increase. Is it guaranteed to happen?

No, but if you never point a loaded gun at yourself, you'll never shoot yourself.

That, I can guarantee.


I’m with RHINOWSO on this one. I know AIWB is what all the cool kids are doing, but it breaks one of the basic rules of gun handling that I’m not willing to break. It is a rule I enforce at my own home range. I know the “it’s a training issue” crowd are willing to take the risk, but I am not.

I realize bad gun handling takes place all the time with all types of carry methods, it’s just less likely to be lethal than AIWB.


"Living among the enemy behind the Tofu Curtain"
 
Posts: 2012 | Location: California, USA | Registered: January 21, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oriental Redneck
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quote:
Originally posted by Sig2340:
quote:
Originally posted by 12131:

Carry chamber empty = 100% idiot proof.



You underestimate the ingenuity of the idiots out there.

Oh no, I'm not. I'm only discussing this particular scenario. Chamber empty when holstering = No bang, even if you are a 7th degree black belt idiot.
 
Posts: 18567 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It is a matter of personal choice. I have had a considerable amount of pistol training. The reason is that I can be clumsy and I have had plenty of things go wrong. I am careful, but I can fall, trip or take my mind off the task at hand. I seldom drove a motorcycle because I remember my bike wrecks. I am content to ride on the back of a motorcycle with an experienced rider. I do not fault people for the AWIB with a loaded chamber.

The Israeli method is possible with charging the slide in a quick fluid motion but I am not that guy. I carry either a revolver with a dual action trigger, an LCP or a Sig with DA/SA trigger. I see how my hands shake when I get an adrenaline dump.
 
Posts: 6735 | Location: MS GULF COAST | Registered: January 02, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ignored facts
still exist
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quote:
Originally posted by YooperSigs:
Agree with Blackwater. There is a need for a rapid draw, but not so much for re-holstering.
Are there situations where you need to leather up quickly? Possibly. Such as needing to render aid to an injured person.
One the most neglected areas of training is a proper holstering. I had to address that when my PD transitioned to P229s and dumped DAQ Smith autos. Quite a few of troops wanted to holster without decocking.
And jacket strings? Cut the damn things off!
And creating good habits goes a long way to putting your artillery away safely once you are under stress.
The wound to me appears to have traveled down just under the skin. It was then opened surgically in order to clean it up. Clothing, powder or holster bits may have been in it.


From what I’ve seen of “training” locally, one shoots until empty, so no reholster issues. Just sayin’.

The trend seems to not be marksmanship as we once knew it, but repeated pulling of the trigger until empty.


.
 
Posts: 8184 | Location: The Beaver State | Registered: February 28, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Posts: 288 | Location: Portland Oregon | Registered: October 01, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
From what I’ve seen of “training” locally, one shoots until empty, so no reholster issues. Just sayin’.

^^^^^^^^^^^^
I get my training from a great couple. Both retired firearms instructors for Tampa PD. They shoot competively as well. I always got and need small group or indivdiual instruction. My next step is getting them to teach me proper carbine shooting with my newly acquired ARs. I have shot bolt action deer guns, but never an AR 15. There will be lots of drills I expect.
 
Posts: 6735 | Location: MS GULF COAST | Registered: January 02, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I definitely prioritize training and practice. That said, I find it hard to fall into the extreme camp of believing that action type doesn't matter, any failure is a failure of training or failure to keep the finger off the trigger. And if we say that it is, it has to be...ok, but we are all fallible and susceptible to high stress, complacency and bad circumstances.

Here we have clothing getting snagged and not a trigger finger issue, but still an issue of not being careful enough on the re-holster.

Action type definitely matters and is an important consideration. I highly doubt even the most hard-core (it is all about training) camp would consider carrying a SAO cocked and unlocked. But why not? If proper training and handling is all you need...shouldn't matter if it is a 1lb trigger SA target pistol should it?

On the other end of the spectrum would be a DAO set up with a NY trigger. This would be extremely "Murphy-proof" at the cost of not being able to be shot well.

In the middle is where everyone lives; DAO, DA/SA, striker, SAO with safety. It is an interplay of user/training level, action type, carry method, and carry gear and clothing.

A rigid OWB holster open carry on one end is a lot less prone to issues of muzzling yourself and clothing interference than AIWB on the other end.

Further complicating/blurring the lines is that striker guns are a sorta hybrid between DAO and SA and the trigger pulls keep getting shorter and lighter as is the case with the P365.

Personally, I do carry AIWB, but it is with a DA/SA P6. I have tried (with an unloaded gun of course) to pull the trigger with my thumb on the hammer. I can't do it, thumb strength and leverage is a lot more than the trigger finger has.

I really like DA/SA for the added stress and "murphy" protection of that long and heavy 1st shot (relative to the striker guns, even with DA action work) and the external hammer. Big danger to the DA/SA would be a lack of training and practice to where de-cocking has not been trained to unconscious competence...then you have an unlocked SA. Eek




“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik

The world's a dangerous place, we can help! http://portlandfirearmtraining.com/
 
Posts: 4593 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Res ipsa loquitur
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quote:
Originally posted by Strambo:
I definitely prioritize training and practice. That said, I find it hard to fall into the extreme camp of believing that action type doesn't matter, any failure is a failure of training or failure to keep the finger off the trigger. And if we say that it is, it has to be...ok, but we are all fallible and susceptible to high stress, complacency and bad circumstances.

Here we have clothing getting snagged and not a trigger finger issue, but still an issue of not being careful enough on the re-holster.

Action type definitely matters and is an important consideration. I highly doubt even the most hard-core (it is all about training) camp would consider carrying a SAO cocked and unlocked. But why not? If proper training and handling is all you need...shouldn't matter if it is a 1lb trigger SA target pistol should it?

On the other end of the spectrum would be a DAO set up with a NY trigger. This would be extremely "Murphy-proof" at the cost of not being able to be shot well.

In the middle is where everyone lives; DAO, DA/SA, striker, SAO with safety. It is an interplay of user/training level, action type, carry method, and carry gear and clothing.

A rigid OWB holster open carry on one end is a lot less prone to issues of muzzling yourself and clothing interference than AIWB on the other end.

Further complicating/blurring the lines is that striker guns are a sorta hybrid between DAO and SA and the trigger pulls keep getting shorter and lighter as is the case with the P365.

Personally, I do carry AIWB, but it is with a DA/SA P6. I have tried (with an unloaded gun of course) to pull the trigger with my thumb on the hammer. I can't do it, thumb strength and leverage is a lot more than the trigger finger has.

I really like DA/SA for the added stress and "murphy" protection of that long and heavy 1st shot (relative to the striker guns, even with DA action work) and the external hammer. Big danger to the DA/SA would be a lack of training and practice to where de-cocking has not been trained to unconscious competence...then you have an unlocked SA. Eek


^^^
Or a Beretta Nano. My every day CCW.


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Posts: 10773 | Registered: October 13, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of arcwelder76
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quote:
Originally posted by 12131:
quote:
Originally posted by Sig2340:
quote:
Originally posted by 12131:

Carry chamber empty = 100% idiot proof.



You underestimate the ingenuity of the idiots out there.

Oh no, I'm not. I'm only discussing this particular scenario. Chamber empty when holstering = No bang, even if you are a 7th degree black belt idiot.


If you're not comfortable carrying with one in the pipe, you probably should not be carrying a gun. You will not have enough time to chamber a round, should you ever actually need to use the pistol. Certainly not unless you practice every day, and then only maybe. Things will happen very fast, and that time you spend chambering a round is an eternity.


Arc.
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Posts: 26234 | Location: Love that dirty water, oh | Registered: June 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
In search of baseball, strippers, and guns
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I don’t appendix carry...I’m not skinny enough


That said, I have the glock gadget on all of my glocks, and have several thousand rounds through them across several guns, and I’ve never had a single issue. Honestly, the only reasons I see not to have them on a defensive use glock is if you’re unable to afford them, or your department doesn’t allow them (and then maybe talk to weps to get them authorized)


——————————————————

If the meek will inherit the earth, what will happen to us tigers?
 
Posts: 7397 | Location: Bristow, VA | Registered: July 09, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Doesn't the manual of arms, action type, and "mission" drive the holstering decisions? In other words, what appears to be a collection of good reasoning, above, seems suited to only one situation at a time in each post.

I hike the backwoods often. It's doubtful that I will encounter a "tactical" situation or a fire fight. My Sig goes along for the four-legged apex predators and/or other serious threats that aren't likely to present as immediate surprises or with a significant startle factor. And yes, I have fallen on various handguns in the past while climbing up or down advanced terrain (including condition 1 1911's) So:

I carry a 320x Compact with a full mag, alternating cartridges, empty chamber. I practice a C-clamp, off-hand racking out of my OWB holster, and never re-holster with a loaded chamber or a dangling jacket or pack strap in the way. I'm an accomplished hiker and a hobbyist shooter.

Please advise or comment - I'm sincerely interested.

TW
 
Posts: 8 | Registered: November 03, 2019Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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quote:
Originally posted by Sig2340:
Will our resident medicos weigh in on this question, please....

Is that gaping wound an avulsion, or are the tissues merely pulling away from the line of the bullet's path?


I'm not a medico, but based on the more detailed explanation in the NAR image posted a few posts above this one, it would appear that the photo of the wound was taken well after the surgeons had already repaired his "obliterated femoral artery", since he appears to be in a normal hospital room without a TQ on the leg or an excess amount of bleeding, and they look to simply be changing the bandage on the wound. So in the process of repairing the damaged artery, they likely had to create/widen the large opening in his leg, and there may not have been enough undamaged tissue left to close it up, or the wound may have been left open to heal from the inside out for some other medical reason.
 
Posts: 23593 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ignored facts
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Strambo:
......... I find it hard to fall into the extreme camp of believing that action type doesn't matter, any failure is a failure of training or failure to keep the finger off the trigger. .....{snip}.........
Action type definitely matters and is an important consideration.


I agree 100% with these statements. Back in the 70's and 80's (and likely before), the long DA revolver trigger pull was part of the safety, and cocked and locked was considered to be at another level.

I cringe when I see novice CCW holders going cocked and locked or using an action type that, in the old days, seemed more risky.

Accidents don't happen often, luckily, but I think we should strive to be like the commercial aviation folks, where the goal is absolute zero. When we have "experienced instructors" having accidents like this, there is room for improvement, both in equipment and technique.


.
 
Posts: 8184 | Location: The Beaver State | Registered: February 28, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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powermad’s post provides a lot of insight. Regardless of position, or condition, of carrying – poor Drew unnecessarily, in my opinion, went outside and placed himself in danger. Then, he made matters even worse with an apparent quick holstering of his Glock. I have gotten to be an old guy using common sense as my first line of defense. It is easy to be an armchair quarterback, but there is no way I would have gone outside, after dark, to investigate a commotion. Shots fired or screaming out there? If my family members were all still safe, then, I would have called the police.
 
Posts: 352 | Location: Northern Virginia | Registered: September 01, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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