quote:

Originally posted by 4859:

quote:

Originally posted by TexasRaider:
Tex Gribner approves....

https://youtu.be/XTGmTrQXrwg

He was using a 5.11 Thumbdrive Holster. He flipped the safety off on his 1911 thinking it was the release on the holster. He learned a hard lesson.

Not quite. In his own words, he'd been using a 5.11 earlier in the day. The holster he was using when he vented his thigh was a Serpa.

https://youtu.be/zYvAxLX6OzE?t=87

Thanks P220 Smudge. It has been some time since I saw that.

quote:

Originally posted by Rodfac:
Gotta say that in the professional training I've had, flipping the safety off right before unholstering would get you ejected from the range. Not to be snarky, but it's a big time safety issue, both on the range and on the street. The safety does not come off, nor does the finger touch the trigger until the gun comes up & into the target area. Not trying to preach here, and perhaps I misunderstand your training regimen...Rod

Not to be disrespectful, But with a P30S carried DA/SA, this is silly. By your logic and that of others who,are shaming the OP, carrying a P30 with no safety would be inherently dangerous. If that’s true then carrying a Glock with a 5.5 pound pull with no manual safety would nearly guarantee an AD/ND. Obviously, one should keep their finger off the trigger until on target and prepared to fire regardless of the weapon. I am referring soley to the unwarranted criticism of disengaging the manual safety on this particular weapon before clearing the holster. In the professional training I’ve had, you’d get blasted for carrying a DA/SA pistol with the safety on, regardless of whtether a P30S frame mounted or a Smith 3rd gen/Beretta mounted slide safety.

If the P30S is carried cocked and locked or a 1911 type pistol, then I agree absolutely. With a long (and some would say too heavy) DA pull, there is absolutely nothing wriong with carrying a P30S with the safety off or to disengage the safety as the OP describes.

Instead of making a mountain out of a mole hill by preaching general safety platitudes that are absolutely critical to other weapons, but that have no application to OP’s weapon, and making him/her feel shitty for doing something unsafe (which is not), perhaps it would be more beneficial to point out other options, like disengaging the safety as part of the draw after the pistol clears the holster, while presenting to the target, or not carrying it with the safety on in the first place.

Disclaimer: My EDC is a P30S that I carry DA/SA with the safety off. Let the flame war begin.

Not sure if people are talking about different things or not.

From the shooting aspect, anyone who says that you shouldn't touch the trigger until the sights are on target is the kind of person I want training my enemies. That technique is born of the NRA style "safety first" lowest common denominator style training that oozes from the law enforcement and big military community. Very little that the internet claims will "get you killed" like these techniques. It is dumb, and there is no valid reason for it, to be blunt. I blame this on the "everybody's a firearms instructor" these days. They have sexy looking Instagram pages, they can talk the grayman Delta EDC lifestyle warriors, but they have neither the skill or actual pedigree to back it up.

When I make the conscious decision to punch the gun out and shoot, as soon as my hands come together, my finger is on the trigger and I am pressing the trigger back with the goal of having the gun go off at full extension or even slightly before. This allows me to use leverage to my my maximum advantage. This also allows me to have a much finer style of trigger control than is taught in the "safety first, sights on, finger on" style classes. Those classes teach shooters to use the trigger to be an on/off switch. They have forced the shooter, through ludicrous policies, dogma, and techniques, to bang at the trigger at the last minute.

All of this is the direct opposite of what the professional people who shoot stuff (people or cardboard for trophies) for a living do. They do not wait until the "sights on, finger on" nonsense. That is reactive shooting. Top shooters shoot proactively.

I've run into lots of people from these styles of trigger control schools that worship this, and they say "I don't know about all of this finger on the trigger stuff" (IE- Sounds scary because I've been to a few lowest common denominator schools and consider myself trained). Fact of the matter is that no one in these type of disciplines will ever beat ANYONE trained to shoot proactively, instead of reactively. Never. You simply can't run the trigger efficiently enough in that compressed amount of time.

None of this also addresses the whole "never touch the trigger" and close quarters (modified speed rock) shooting. I love letting someone give me a speil about "never touch the trigger" and then I ask them if they teach close quarters shooting. I show them their hypocrisy after they answer yes, and usually get blink, blink, blink.

Well said, jljones.

Jljones makes great points, and his credentials are unrefuted. I do think, however, there is a difference between one who is highly trained versus one who is not or drawing a weapon with the intent to fire and drawing without the conscious decision to fire having already been made. I dont care how many tactical you tube videos one has watched or how many schools one has been to, there is a big difference when you are pointing a live gun at someone with the intent to or at least the capability to take their life. It is completely a different game all together to do it when that person is trying to end you, or is on the other end of a building search and has the tactical advantage on you. It is a completely different game when you are trying to deal with a massive adrenaline dump that has real, physiologocal implications.

Its the old adage, never say never and never say always. There are always exceptions. The opinions of other shooters or those who may have some instructor chops (i.e. NRA instrctors) have value, but they are not definitive. It is a big difference between teaching someone to punch paper, or not blow their foot off so they can get a hunting license or a CWP and teaching people to defend themselves from an active threat, or in the building search context, to hunt another human being who may (or does) have the means and desire to make you dead. Instructors like jljones are the real deal and teach people how to think, how to fight and how to survive, not just how to shoot.

Most training is better than none, but all instructors are not created equal, even those that claim to have been there and done that. Everyone who carries a gun should always question why we do something, does it contribute to our overall chance of survival and does it serve a purpose. My favorite idiocy is the scan after you shoot nonsense. Of course you should scan, its always the “plus one” you dont see that poses the most risk, but to automatically and very quickly move ones head from side to side as a relex action instead of actually looking is merely tactical theatrics.

Anyone who wants to test any you tube or uber-tactical NRA instrutor techniques is strongly emcouraged to take a class with force on force (think simunitions) training, and you will see just how fast the tactical theatrics and paper punching safety measures will get you dead. I have seen super ninja high speed acting dudes just flat give up when they feel the sting of a simunitions round, and Ive seen 100lb meek and mild mannered women fight like hell when getting shot at. Outward appearances are not always the best indicator if success in a gunfight.

Safety is important, but always fight, not just shoot, to survive, which sometimes includes breaking some of the NRA “range rules.”

Just my .02 which is worth what you paid for it.

quote:

I blame this on the "everybody's a firearms instructor" these days. They have sexy looking Instagram pages, they can talk the grayman Delta EDC lifestyle warriors, but they have neither the skill or actual pedigree to back it up.

I like to call them Tactards.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

Either way, thank goodness that as soon as the shot went off, his training took over and he immediately called his parents!
https://youtu.be/zYvAxLX6OzE?t=178

I think the "sights on, finger on" school of instruction became popular when the Glock became popular. As an olde timey revolver guy, my finger went to the trigger as the gun was rising into my line of sight. With the 1911, I swept off the safety just prior to moving my finger. Now, with striker guns, I delay my finger to trigger move until the gun is just below my line of sight.
Jones is correct when he says the "sights on, finger on" training is used to keep lowest common denominator shooters from plinking themselves. It is a method that works for unmotivated shooters or for shooters who dont shoot often enough to become truly proficient.

quote:

Originally posted by 4859:
I like to call them Tactards.

Or Mall Ninja, or Drugstore SWAT or just plain wannabe's.

Simply because someone can blow a wad of cash or a credit card balance on a bunch of 'tactical' crap his favorite YouTuber recommends or by what he reads in RECOIL magazine hardly means he knows what he'd doing.

I guess it hasn't occurred to a lot of these folk that getting sucked up into the 'Firearms Lifestyle' (gawd, I hate that term) is just hucksterism. They're getting sold a bill of goods. It's like golf; the recreational golfing industry isn't selling you a better game of golf, they're selling you a 'lifestyle', which translates into you spending thousands upon thousands of dollars over several years on the never-ending quest to keep up with the latest gear, clothes, tools, training, etc. etc. etc., which of course itself will never end because that's the industry's income and life blood and it's in their interest to keep pumping out new crap to keep you hooked mentally and financially.

Fact is, if you are a serious, hardcore handgun driver that practices correctly, frequently and understands the actual, practical, real world use of a defensive handgun and the legal aspects and ramifications of its carry and use, you don't need 99% of the garbage out there. A majority of it is just shiny new 'thingys' of the moment that get your cash. If you're that person, you will do just fine with an older S&W Model 10 3" with good grips loaded with Remington .38 Special +P 125 Gr. JHP's stuck in decent leather with a few speed loaders in your jacket pocket. That's it. A true firearms student with a dedicated, intelligent, disciplined mind and spirit with that gear is light years ahead of Teddy Tactical that gave Larry Vickers $5000 in course money and carries a $1600 Zev Glock with a chopped up slide.

Are there better weapons now than 40 years ago? Yes. Is ammo better now than 40 years ago. In some respects, yes. But generally speaking, all the battle belt gear, $2 around 'FBI gelatin approved molecularly bonded' ammo and 'American Gunfighter' crap used by Joe Citizen is embarrassing. I wanna' yell at these guys to stop acting as if they're storming the beach at Normandy or they're in the French Underground fighting Nazi Zombies. You're not an undercover narc, you're not a SWAT team leader, you're not Wyatt Earp and you're not John Wick.... you're not going to run into the middle of an active shooter scene, take out the bad guy and get a medal on TV with the mayor. Stop living in fantasy land, turn off the video games and realize that carrying a weapon for every day is not a 'cool' or 'bad ass' hobby, it's a life and death issue.

All the new toys and gimmicks won't do a thing for you if you don't understand all the levels that go with a real shooting; mindset, ability, liability, physical conditioning, emotional maturity and health, criminal prosecution, civil litigation, traumatic aftermath.... all of which doesn't even touch on your relative skill at high stress reaction, front sight acquisition, threat assessment ability, situational awareness, coping with adrenaline dump, tactile deprivation, tunnel vision, massive fear inhibition, ability to deliver repeated shots on target accurately under stress, accurate layered response under stress when center mass hits fail, the ability to judge time and distance while under duress moving safely and intelligently, the ability to reload effectively and finally the understanding that as a citizen you are NOT liable for stopping a threat but only for yourself and perhaps your immediate family before retreating; if you try to be a hero anyway and inadvertently hit an innocent, in most states you actually have now become liable and can be charged with reckless or involuntary manslaughter. The latest reflex optic, flat trigger or YouTube video by some "Pew Pew" star isn't going to help you worth an ounce of dog squeeze in any of those issues.

Sorry for the rant, but it's just tiring seeing adolescent man-children act like they're some stone cold, hit man killing machine that's racked up more 'kills' than Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner because they maxxed out their credit card on the newest poly-striker with a laser. I know retired lawmen in their 70's that carry old Series 70's Combat Commander 45's loaded with plain as vanilla 230 gr. JHP's that would put Teddy Tactical in his grave in three seconds.

FWIW FLETC banned the SERPA. They released a study and executive decision explain why. It can be found with a google search.

I totally agree TexasRaider. Great rant!

Texas, I know one of those guys you are talking about. He's retired but he's been in more shootings that you can shake a stick at. 72 years old and still carries a gun. And still lookin for bad guys. Did I mention that he's almost obese as well. He drove a paddy wagon his entire career but he could teach classes to some of the tactical teddies.

I'm not Le or Military.
Iv'e heard all the anti Serpa arguments.
I noticed a lot of troops wearing the Serpa on a vest or belt during the desert wars.

Did they shoot themselves and why was the .gov issuing then if they sucked so bad?

Again. Not arguing, just asking,

Full disclosure......g_26 Gen 3 in a Serpa. No issues.

Because they are the lowest bidder. And read the Marine Corps report. They pushed back.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Because they are the lowest bidder. And read the Marine Corps report. They pushed back.

Got it. Thank you for the reply.

Not a gunfighter in full disclosure but I want to point out some cross talk that is missing the point. Unless I am the one missing the point. Lol

Jljones talks about finger on trigger as his hands come together and as he presses out he preps and shoots at extension, full or not quite full. That is most definitely not finger on the trigger as soon as it clears leather. The guy who said that and was chastised for it was correct to be chastised.

Not to be needlessly argumentative but hands coming together pointed at threat finger on trigger (not sights on trigger on) IS NOT the same as finger on trigger as soon as it clears leather. That is a fundamental misunderstanding.

Correct me if I’m wrong. I am here to learn.

And to clarify: I don’t think this is just a semantic difference.

quote:

Originally posted by highroundcount:
I'm not Le or Military.
Iv'e heard all the anti Serpa arguments.
I noticed a lot of troops wearing the Serpa on a vest or belt during the desert wars.

Did they shoot themselves and why was the .gov issuing then if they sucked so bad?

Again. Not arguing, just asking,

Full disclosure......g_26 Gen 3 in a Serpa. No issues.

At least in the Army, I have never seen an officially wide-spread "issued" holster other than the 80's Bianchi canvas flap one.

When a unit deploys it gets a hit of discretional funds and sometimes units (brigade or BN level) will buy holsters with that. I got an annoying thigh rig issued to me that way once.

The Serpas you see are individually purchased in many cases, mine were. Why Serpa? Because it is inexpensive for a holster for a gun you don't own and easy to slap on your gear. I got mine before the issues with them became known. It worked fine for me for 2 tours, but now I would go different route, since I bend my own Kydex now, I'd just make myself one.

I see no reason to buy and use one now especially in a civilian setting (any, really).

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Not a gunfighter in full disclosure but I want to point out some cross talk that is missing the point. Unless I am the one missing the point. Lol

Jljones talks about finger on trigger as his hands come together and as he presses out he preps and shoots at extension, full or not quite full. That is most definitely not finger on the trigger as soon as it clears leather. The guy who said that and was chastised for it was correct to be chastised.

Not to be needlessly argumentative but hands coming together pointed at threat finger on trigger (not sights on trigger on) IS NOT the same as finger on trigger as soon as it clears leather. That is a fundamental misunderstanding.

Correct me if I’m wrong. I am here to learn.

And to clarify: I don’t think this is just a semantic difference.

For me the missing link is muzzle direction and that wasn't mentioned in the "clear leather" context.

If I'm coming to a 2-hand shooting position, my finger goes on the trigger at Pos 3 as the hands come together. If I'm shooting from retention is hits the trigger as soon as the muzzle is oriented down-range. Either way, it doesn't go on the trigger before the bullet would go in the direction I want it to.

I’m certainly not the expert but I will post like I am. Here goes. Never had a Serpa but certainly a lot of others, leather, kydex, leather and kydex, etc.

In this “style” of holster I don’t understand why anyone would choose Serpa over the ALS style ones. I have one complaint only with Safariland. They don’t make enough of them for guys who want one for something other than a Glock. I can find Glock, 226, and that’s about it. I am having trouble sourcing one for my LTT. I should say sourcing the cordura wrapped style. I prefer those for the higher sided protection and the wrap “feels” better, sounds less plasticy, and apparently has a smaller IR print which means nothing to my lifestyle but whatever.