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Originally posted by snipert:

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Originally posted by Fuego220:

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Originally posted by dcowboyscr:
I know we can look at statistics and the average number of rounds fired in each gunfight and all that but in this day and age no way would I carry an 8+1 pistol and 4 magazines for a total of 41 rounds when there are better options that double your capacity.

https://www.policeone.com/poli...-of-ammo-on-the-job/

If you look at the details of the Gramins shooting, he went through so much ammo because he used a "spray and pray" model for his OIS. It wasn't until he had depleted most of his ammo, that he realized he had better start actually taking aim at his target. The same thing happened in the Officer Keith Borders shooting. He was also using a Glock 21, and was down to his last magazine before he started to take better aim.

For many years, officers have done quite well with low capacity revolvers, even against long guns. Most LE and civilian handgun training now days stresses firing until the threat is gone. This is a pretty sound approach to stopping a threat, however in an actual shooting this technique tends to cause the shooter to fire more rapidly than they can control and burn through their magazine rather quickly. The other observable issue is the psychological effect of having a high capacity pistol often causes the shooter to waste ammo in a gun fight. This issue has been observed as far back as WWII when the US Army upper brass was hesitant to adopt the M1 Garand for fear that it would cause the solder to waste ammo in semiauto mode versus the more purposeful action of using the bolt action Springfield 1903. Battle field tests indeed showed that US GIs indeed burned through much more ammo with the Garand than the Springfield, with no increase in enemy casualties.

One thing I will say that I have observed in OIS reports that I have read from my agency, along with many other Federal agencies is that the .45acp is pretty effective IF, and only IF you hit the target in a good spot(On the flip side, our agency shootings where the officer was using 9mm, and made good shots were also quite effective). One problem that I have with a lot of trainees trying to use either the P220 or P227 is that they have a great deal of trouble hitting 8" steel beyond 20yrds due to anticipated recoil jerk and grip fatigue. Anticipated recoil will always be greater in the heavier recoiling calibers.....this can only be minimized through maintaining constant range training(needed more often with .45). Grip fatigue is the breakdown of the grip with the recoil of each shot, causing accuracy and stability to get worse. Grip fatigue gets worse the heavier the recoiling the caliber.

......long story short, the Tim Gramins and Keith Borders OISs did not have to be high round count shootings. Borders understood the problems I outlined above, and in his interview stated that he should have slowed down his shooting and put more focus on getting accurate hits. Gramins did not, and now carries 145 rounds on his person. Gramins was a product of the competition world. Competition gaming scenarios often set up unrealistic challenges and pass it off as training for the real world. Often these steel and paper challenges influence our perception of what would be real, yet their designs are 10% taken from an OIS, and 90% made up by the instructor to challenge you further.

Personally, I find that 8+1 rounds is adequate when you train for shot strings based on your own personal loadout. I used to carry a P220, and would have no problem switching back to it if the need was there, but I moved to 9mm a few years ago. I found that when using 9mm I did not have to maintain such a strict training regime, and I faired much better when I got injured and had to shoot single hand. I feel pretty confident using my Sig P239 9mm off duty and that is a 8+1 round gun.

I hope your overconfidence in your ability never has to experience a fight for your life.
Your analysis and opinion of these incidents is lacking. In the Gramins shoooting he fired a total of 33 rounds making 17 hits. Apparently all that praying he did was really effective! The first 13 rounds were fired outbound through a vehicle windshield in three distinct holes tracking up and to the left as the offender ran up to the driver side window to fire his last round through the drivers door window through the drivers seat. Gramins then exited the vehicle and went forward and off to the left flank of Maddox as Maddox was obtaining a second handgun from the vehicle. Gramins then fired on the run at Maddox and continued firing as he went past Maddox and around the rear of his squad car to the opposite side. Gramins then intentionally tried to skip rounds under his squad car to hit Maddox as he was ducking up and down on the opposite side of the squad car. Realizing this was not effective and with the knowledge he was on his last magazine Gramins then dropped prone and was able to put 3 rounds in Maddox CNS in rapid succession to end the fight. At this point Maddox had been hit 14 times already (must have been that praying again not the countless hours of training and preparation) with 230 grain Speer Gold Dot .45 Caliber ammunition. Wait perhaps you missed the fact that Maddox fired 22 rounds at Gramins just like what happpens in the "Competition World". Your lack of comprehension of limiting an opponent with fire and taking available hits is bewildering. Ironically Gramins has never done competition shooting but is a Swat Officer, Sniper and Sniper Team leader on his agencies Swat team. Perhaps the reason he carries so much ammo is because he works in the police district that includes Chicago. Not sure what it is like in your agencies jurisdiction but I attached a video link for you to watch to see what goes on around here.
http://conservativevideos.com/...o-sounds-like-video/
You could also take the Dallas Incident or San Bernardino Incident and realize the good old days of not having a realistic load out are over.
Ive also attached a podcast
http://proarmspodcast.com/090-...-skokie-police-dept/
Please take the time to conduct research and inform yourself before making assumptions and thus placing misguided opinions and analysis on another officers shooting. If you have been involved in an OIS I would welcome a response detailing your incident(s). I make it a point to learn from incidents not critique a winner of a gun battle.
Mas Ayoob, Dean Scoville and Charles Remsberg, a fairly well respected trio, have all seen the Medical Examiners reports and Crime scene photos and videos prior to writing their articles. Its unfortunate you fail to recognize tactics and the real world and speed of combat. I hope you have an open mind and can study learn and prepare for reality as your day may come. Stay Safe!