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P320 Drop Safety in Question (Formerly DPD Recall thread) Login/Join 
Glorious SPAM!
Picture of mbinky
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quote:
Originally posted by RX-79G:
I'm sorry, are you speculating and then complaining about speculation in the very next post?


I am saying we do not know. Has it been determined what or what not Sig knew? YOU are speculating, and interjecting opinion. Like you have been doing since the beginning.

But feel free to show me your facts. You investigate air disasters correct? Do you let your opinion and speculation permeate your reports? Because when I used to write test reports, I only reported verifiable facts.
 
Posts: 10635 | Registered: June 13, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
posted Hide Post
quote:
Before all this, I assumed I never should drop a loaded gun.

That is still a valid assumption. Wink

quote:
If SIG thought there was a problem they wouldn't have issued press releases to the contrary a week ago.

Agreed.
 
Posts: 45798 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by mbinky:
SPECULATION: The M17 never passed drop tests.


As previously reported by Soldier Systems (emphasis added):

quote:
While the MHS passed DoD’s TOP 3-2-045 test with the trigger currently in the commercial P320, SIG proposed an enhanced trigger via Engineering Change Request E0005.


TOP 3-2-045 page 54 describes the drop test.
quote:
b. 1.5 Meter (5 Ft) Drop.

  • Use three serviceable weapons for this test. Load each weapon with a primed but otherwise empty cartridge case to assess the possibility of accidental firing. Place the safety switch in the Safe position.
  • Drop each weapon one time in each of the following orientations:

    1. Major axis horizontal (normal firing orientation).
    2. Major axis vertical, butt down.
    3. Major axis vertical, muzzle down.
    4. Major axis 45° from vertical, butt down.
    5. Major axis 45° from vertical, muzzle down.

  • Drop the weapons onto a clean, level, concrete surface. They may be dropped by a mechanical means or by manually releasing them in the required orientation. Verify the proper impact orientation by video recording (preferred), or by careful visual observation, or photographic records.
  • Inspect the weapons after each drop. Ascertain the position of the safety switch and check to see if the primed cartridge case has fired. Record all damages and all maintenance required. Conduct a firing test if the serviceability of the weapons is questionable.
 
Posts: 625 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: March 25, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of ddown
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I'm not sure we will know any more facts on Monday. Only what the Lawyers want you to know. I know SIG Won the Pricing bid but for the first time in history no phase II testing was done. Army said the bid was so low it would'nt have made difference in performance so they didn't test performance. I'm sure the fix is in but it's going to get ugly
 
Posts: 17 | Location: MI | Registered: February 11, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by mbinky:
I understand their recent announcements do not help them at all, but that does not mean they were planning to ignore this altogether.


There are a lot of ifs, mights, and maybes right now. I don't think they were planning to ignore it altogether, and I'll give them the benefit of doubt on that. I THINK they hoped they had a sound fix for the military's issues that MIGHT work for the civilian and LE contingent. I think this thing might have just blown up in their face before they were comfortable releasing a promising but untested fix for the issues, which is very unfortunate for them.

But if they even suspected there MIGHT be a problem (especially a safety problem) worth fixing, it's just unfortunate for the civilian and LE consumers that they continued to sell the same old pistols and not halt production until this finally did blow up in their face.
 
Posts: 872 | Registered: October 08, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Glorious SPAM!
Picture of mbinky
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quote:
Originally posted by ddown:
I know SIG Won the Pricing bid but for the first time in history no phase II testing was done. Army said the bid was so low it would'nt have made difference in performance so they didn't test performance. I'm sure the fix is in but it's going to get ugly


And you know this how? You do know that cost is only ONE factor in a contract correct?
 
Posts: 10635 | Registered: June 13, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by mbinky:
quote:
Originally posted by ddown:
I know SIG Won the Pricing bid but for the first time in history no phase II testing was done. Army said the bid was so low it would'nt have made difference in performance so they didn't test performance. I'm sure the fix is in but it's going to get ugly


And you know this how? You do know that cost is only ONE factor in a contract correct?


More than one of us suspect that pricing and engineering concessions might have been the determining factor here.
 
Posts: 872 | Registered: October 08, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Blackwater
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quote:
Originally posted by RX-79G:
quote:
Originally posted by Blackwater:
"Sig proposed An enhanced trigger"
No really we insist....

Over wine and dancers, I'm sure. "Meh don't worry about it, it won't cost the government a penny"

Everyone bursts out in laughter...

This makes me more skeptical, that Sig new about the issue and obviously had already designed new components. Didn't want to get caught with their panties around their ankles with gov contract.


If SIG had proposed making the as-yet-unproduced guns tan rather than brown for the same price, would you find that similarly suspicious?

Like I said, if they were already planning to address the 2 click thing that commercial buyers didn't care for, why wouldn't they produce the military guns the same way? It is more expensive to have two separate parts series for nominally the same gun.

Beretta did exactly the same thing with the M9 and 92.

Sometimes the profit comes from cost savings in reduced part SKUs.


If I thought it was funny yes. How ridiculous of a question.

There are design, RD and tooling costs in development of a new trigger. To suggest that it wouldn't have cost them anything to produce is the same ridiculous kind of assumption.


Joe
 
Posts: 2525 | Location: Az | Registered: October 28, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Glorious SPAM!
Picture of mbinky
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quote:
Originally posted by ether:
More than one of us suspect that pricing and engineering concessions might have been the determining factor here.


I am sure there are. I have personally been involved in many, many .gov tests at ATC, YTC, NATC, and other places. Cost has never been the detirmining factor in any test I have ever been apart of. Granted I tested ordnance and not small arms, but it is pretty much the same.

People love to joke about the "lowest bidder" (been there, done that) but it really truely is a lot more. If it was all about cost the military would be carrying Kel Tec rifles and Hi Point pistols. To get invited to the party you need to first meet the desired specs and requirements (RFP). Then you go to test. During test and evaluation every single flaw is scrutinized, and long winded reports are written buy .gov "data collectors." These are put into "TIR's", or test incident reports. Every so often during the test the .gov test engineers and the vendor engineers get together in what are called "scoring conferences". This is where the TIR's are discussed, and any failures and possible improvements are taken care of.

Remember, we love to say our equipment is "made by the lowest bidder", but in reality it is made by the bidder that can meet the requirements, can delver on time, and has a good price. And that price is not always the lowest.
 
Posts: 10635 | Registered: June 13, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Certified Plane Pusher
Picture of Phantom229
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So if I were in the market for a P320 Compact, do I wait or do I just buy one?



Situation awareness is defined as a continuous extraction of environmental information, integration of this information with previous knowledge to form a coherent mental picture in directing further perception and anticipating future events. Simply put, situational awareness mean knowing what is going on around you.
 
Posts: 7895 | Location: Around Lake Tapps, Wa | Registered: September 29, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by mbinky:
quote:
Originally posted by ether:
More than one of us suspect that pricing and engineering concessions might have been the determining factor here.


I am sure there are. I have personally been involved in many, many .gov tests at ATC, YTC, NATC, and other places. Cost has never been the detirmining factor in any test I have ever been apart of. Granted I tested ordnance and not small arms, but it is pretty much the same.

People love to joke about the "lowest bidder" (been there, done that) but it really truely is a lot more. If it was all about cost the military would be carrying Kel Tec rifles and Hi Point pistols. To get invited to the party you need to first meet the desired specs and requirements (RFP). Then you go to test. During test and evaluation every single flaw is scrutinized, and long winded reports are written buy .gov "data collectors." These are put into "TIR's", or test incident reports. Every so often during the test the .gov test engineers and the vendor engineers get together in what are called "scoring conferences". This is where the TIR's are discussed, and any failures and possible improvements are taken care of.

Remember, we love to say our equipment is "made by the lowest bidder", but in reality it is made by the bidder that can meet the requirements, can delver on time, and has a good price. And that price is not always the lowest.


I'm sure some of us are just jaded by the M9 trials, where rumors were rampant...and that was even before the internet age. And some of us think, "Why should this be any different?" I like my Berettas, but I don't think it was as good as the P226. I'm not alone. Even before the internet, it sure sounded like price and politics factored into that trial. Still, just rumors and speculation mostly. Maybe Sig started those, and now it's their turn haha...I doubt it, but who knows.

I do think Sig will eventually fix this (they kinda have to) and will hopefully even emerge with a product that I want to buy.
 
Posts: 872 | Registered: October 08, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Leatherneck
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quote:
Originally posted by Phantom229:
So if I were in the market for a P320 Compact, do I wait or do I just buy one?


I think I'd buy one now. I'd guess that with everyone sending theirs in for the changes it might be a while before new ones with the changes already done start hitting the shelves.

That's just a guess though. Sig might have a plan that does not interrupt production too much. Maybe they will let us know Monday.




“Everybody wants a Sig in the sheets but a Glock on the streets.” -bionic218 04-02-2014
 
Posts: 15249 | Location: Florida | Registered: May 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by ddown:
Army said the bid was so low it would'nt have made difference in performance so they didn't test performance.
And where did you get this information??

According to the gao/gov report. See page 3 of 17 it states "The combination of all non-price factors was significantly more important than price.". The table on page 6 of 17 is also interesting.

http://www.gao.gov/assets/690/685461.pdf
 
Posts: 875 | Location: South Dakota | Registered: May 21, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Glorious SPAM!
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I bought mine in May of '14, ODG compact with night sights. Last fired it in March of '15. Just over 1K rounds total.

Tell you what, we'll see what happens Monday and I might be open to offers Wink
 
Posts: 10635 | Registered: June 13, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by mbinky:
quote:
Originally posted by Operations:
but for 3 years they never tried a drop test?


It passed ALL of the commercial (ANSI, ETC) drop tests. This flaw was discovered during a drop not covered in standardized testing.


According to some on the Pistol Forum other brands have failed this new drop test as well.

I think it is very likely that we will see an addition to the drop testing protocol for all handguns.
 
Posts: 875 | Location: South Dakota | Registered: May 21, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
Picture of ensigmatic
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by mbinky:
quote:
Originally posted by RoverSig:
We are witnessing the power of the internet.


EXACTLY.

FACT: The Sig P320 can discharge if dropped.

FACT: Sig has acknowledged this and is working on a fix.

SPECUALTION: Sig knew of this and never intended to reveal it but was forced too once it hit the innerweb.

SPECULATION: Sig plans on making the current commercial owners pay some of the cost.

SPECULATION: The M17 never passed drop tests.

SPECULATION: Sig DID learn of this during the M17 trials and ignored it.

SPECULATION: Sig planned on ignoring this and hoped it would go away.

I prefer facts, and we only have a few now, but we will have more on Monday.




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher
 
Posts: 26009 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Glorious SPAM!
Picture of mbinky
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quote:
Originally posted by ether:
I'm sure some of us are just jaded by the M9 trials, where rumors were rampant...and that was even before the internet age. And some of us think, "Why should this be any different?" I like my Berettas, but I don't think it was as good as the P226. I'm not alone. Even before the internet, it sure sounded like price and politics factored into that trial. Still, just rumors and speculation mostly. Maybe Sig started those, and now it's their turn haha...I doubt it, but who knows.

I do think Sig will eventually fix this (they kinda have to) and will hopefully even emerge with a product that I want to buy.


I COMPLETLY understand that. The P226 is my favorite Sig. Remember though, they both passed the tests, and that is where price comes into play.

I carried the Beretta for many, many years and honestly? I like it better than my P226 now. Not that it's better, it's just better for me.

Sig will get this figured out. Lots of emotion out there I totally agree. I just like to judge based on facts. I am not by any means taking up for Sig, but I won't speculate on things I do not know.
 
Posts: 10635 | Registered: June 13, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by mbinky:
quote:
Originally posted by ether:
I'm sure some of us are just jaded by the M9 trials, where rumors were rampant...and that was even before the internet age. And some of us think, "Why should this be any different?" I like my Berettas, but I don't think it was as good as the P226. I'm not alone. Even before the internet, it sure sounded like price and politics factored into that trial. Still, just rumors and speculation mostly. Maybe Sig started those, and now it's their turn haha...I doubt it, but who knows.

I do think Sig will eventually fix this (they kinda have to) and will hopefully even emerge with a product that I want to buy.


I COMPLETLY understand that. The P226 is my favorite Sig. Remember though, they both passed the tests, and that is where price comes into play.

I carried the Beretta for many, many years and honestly? I like it better than my P226 now. Not that it's better, it's just better for me.

Sig will get this figured out. Lots of emotion out there I totally agree. I just like to judge based on facts. I am not by any means taking up for Sig, but I won't speculate on things I do not know.


Agreed. I think most of us just want them to do the right thing, and hopefully they are.
 
Posts: 872 | Registered: October 08, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Glorious SPAM!
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Sigh. Ok. You got me. I SPECULATED. I apologize.

So lets both wait for some FACTS eh?

But "real world" huh? Interesting....so you are the only one to live in the "real world"? What world do the rest of us live in? I'm curious because it's really humid here. Is the real world cooler?

Show me some evidence of your claims about M17 drop testing. Verifiable evidence. Show me some evidence where Sig knew and decided to hide this. Show me some evidence of the Sig engineering team "not knowing what they are doing".

Because I HAVE NEVER, EVER, seen a product that was tested and approved NOT have faults when it was released for general consumption, no matter WHO the engineers were. Ever heard of an ECP? An ECR? That's right, those things that are implemented when a weapons system (or any system) gets fielded and develops issues not discovered by testing.
 
Posts: 10635 | Registered: June 13, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ddown:
I'm not sure we will know any more facts on Monday. Only what the Lawyers want you to know. I know SIG Won the Pricing bid but for the first time in history no phase II testing was done. Army said the bid was so low it would'nt have made difference in performance so they didn't test performance. I'm sure the fix is in but it's going to get ugly

The fix? Have you called your Senator, Congressman and the DOJ with this information?


______________________
An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing. --Nicholas Murray Butler
 
Posts: 4670 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: June 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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