quote:

Originally posted by grumpy1:

quote:

Originally posted by jbourneidentity:
Page 25 of Sig Sauer P320 Owner's Manual: "WARNING-DROPPED PISTOL. If dropped, the pistol may fire. Keep the chamber empty unless actually firing! ANY FIREARM MAY FIRE IF DROPPED."


I suppose this is a basic CYA for the lawyers, but it is certainly worded poorly. Perhaps it should've said, "Always exercise physical control of your pistol. If dropped, a foreign object can inadvertently contact the trigger and cause the pistol to fire...".

That would make it sound a lot less like the P320 has an inherent mechanical flaw in the drop safety, as the wording in the current owner's manual seems to do. It's all about context and semantics these days, I suppose.

This is nothing new and only by SIG. Other manufacturers have similar wordings. I have read more than a few times for other manufacturers where manual states to not have a round in the chamber until you are ready to fire. Most never read everything in the manual for their firearms but now some are scrutinizing every word in the P320 manual and somehow coming to the ridiculous conclusion that wording means the P320 is not drop safe. As far as warnings short and to the point is always best otherwise you lose the readers interest or confuse them. Don't drink and drive is a perfect example.

I understand your point and agree, but it is most certainly poorly worded, and perhaps an example of saying too little in what has amounted to, rightly or wrongly, a controversy with this particular handgun. This is just exactly what an attorney would use to cross-examine a Sig Sauer engineer in a product liability civil suit in an effort to make them liable. "So, you say in your own manual that the P320 will fire if dropped!!!" I can hear it now. Sigh.

Like I said, these low bid pistols are going to be problematic.

BREAKING - Sig recalls DPD 320s

quote:

Originally posted by sg:
Like I said, these low bid pistols are going to be problematic.

BREAKING - Sig recalls DPD 320s

The same article being repeated over and over.

Garbage in. Garbage out.

And SIG didn't recall the pistols it says Dallas PD recalled them from their officers.

So Dallas says SIG identified an issue. SIG says they're unaware of any recalls issued. This supposedly started from an AD/ND from a dropped pistol, but Dallas PD says there was none to their knowledge.

I said before that I'm skeptical that this occurred. It does appear DPD did remove the P320 as approved. It's still not clear whether there really is any issue.

I wonder what Series 70 fans are thinking right now.

ETA: screenshot of classic line owners manual (P220/224/225/226/227/229/239)

From: https://www.sigsauer.com/wp-co.../07/Classic_Line.pdf

So yeah, I'd say it's a legal disclaimer. And DPD says they issue the P226, so it shouldn't relate to the disclaimer.

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
ETA: screenshot of classic line owners manual (P220/224/225/226/227/229/239)

From: https://www.sigsauer.com/wp-co.../07/Classic_Line.pdf

So yeah, I'd say it's a legal disclaimer. And DPD says they issue the P226, so it shouldn't relate to the disclaimer.

The same "FIRE IF DROPPED" language is also in SIG's rifle manuals - semi-auto and bolt action.

The DPD spokes people are sounding like the Three Stooges with the variations of their stories.

Looks more like a P250 to me.

Don't make any effort to hide your agenda.

quote:

Originally posted by sg:
Like I said, these low bid pistols are going to be problematic.

BREAKING - Sig recalls DPD 320s

Ah, come on guys. That's the fun of the internet. Watching those with an agenda try hard to make it look like they don't care.

"Low bid" is the "Russian Hacking" of the Army contract.

Glock made its empire on being "low bid", but that's seemingly not remembered by some right now.

quote:

Originally posted by Fire Away:
Don't make any effort to hide your agenda.

quote:

Originally posted by sg:
Like I said, these low bid pistols are going to be problematic.

BREAKING - Sig recalls DPD 320s

Lol So if you have an opinion other than the Sig line it's an "agenda". Gotcha.

I prefer the classic line from 20yrs ago. Bought a 320, and actually shot it, didn't care for it. Sig has gone to customer beta testing and corner cutting. Mark my words, the MHS will not end well.

quote:

Originally posted by sg:
Mark my words, the MHS will not end well.

I wish we could "mark your words", because the MHS is going to be with the US military for at least the next thirty years.

You'll see it configured in everything from a subcompact pistol to a SBR type carbine.

So get over yourself and learn to love it.

Can't believe I wasted my time analyzing this, but here it is anyway.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...-duty-till-repaired/

Wreaks of contradictions and lack of clarity. Not the writer's fault though. He tried to do due diligence. You have to pay attention to what the official Dallas PD spokespeople are quoted as saying.

Summary:

1) Allegedly leaked report from Dallas PD.

2) No Sig factory recall. Just Dallas PD temporarily pulling P320's from duty use. For whatever reason.

3) Writer contacted Sig official who would be responsible for issuing a recall. Sig official stated he had not issued one and was unaware of any other Sig official that had done same.

4) When asked by writer for comment, Dallas PD stated that "We have not currently had any issues with the Sig Sauer P320 handgun. The use of the Sig Sauer P320 has been suspended due to safety precautions." Huh?

5) Dallas PD asked by writer for info about how the failure occurred. Response stated that Sig "identified a defect in the P320 handgun that could cause the weapon system to go off when dropped." An unresponsive non-answer, since it only appears to reference the poorly worded CYA warning in the manual.

6) Dallas PD asked by writer if anybody actually dropped a P320 with subsequent discharge. Response stated that "There have been no reported incidents of an accidental discharge involving this weapon because of the defect."

Talk about a runaway story. An analysis of the article and the points addressed above results in the following:

(1) Dallas PD did not actually have a drop failure or any other safety issue with a department issued/used P320.
(2) Apparently based the decision to suspend the use of P320's on the safety warning in the Sig manual.
(3) Sig has no idea what Dallas PD is talking about.

Willing to wait for any facts that appear later. At this point, based on the reported information, it looks like Dallas PD bureaucracy is doing a CYA shtick. Or just plain incompetence.

Thank you, Nipper, for your analysis. Between posts based on poor reading skills and evidently not reading at all, this story has become confusing to say the least. And thanks to Bruce Gray as well (and as always).

This whole thing reminds me of a story I heard years ago during my first SIG factory armorer course. An LE agency reported that the new guns they’d just purchased suffered cycling failures whenever they were fired at 50 yards—but only when fired at the 50 yard line.

Although it was obvious that there must have been some sort of operator error involved (unless the 50 yard line was where all the gremlins lived), SIG sent a couple of reps to the agency to see what was going on. Turns out that the police range was equipped with sturdy PPC type barricades at 50, and the shooters were using a PPC-type technique. They would roll the pistol hard into the wood upright to give themselves extra stability at that distance before firing. That obviously interfered with free slide movement and caused the failures. As the expression goes: Duh!

I will say, though, that I agree it was an incredibly stupid thing for the owners manual to say that the gun could fire if dropped and, in effect, that it was unsafe to handle with a round chambered. I can only guess that one part of the group at SIG wasn’t paying attention to what another part was doing, and I can hardly wait until someone responds to my, “Let it fall; don’t try to catch it,” safety warning with, “But the SIG manual says ….”
Unless it’s true, of course, and then the stupidity is at the Hall of Fame level.

You're welcome. Fortunately I'm retired and have the time. However, my eyes are crossed and my brain partially scrambled after reading this crap.

Time for a large glass of wine.

if this is the case, we are safer knowing that at least Dallas PD read the effing manual.

quote:

Originally posted by saigonsmuggler:
if this is the case, we are safer knowing that at least Dallas PD read the effing manual.

There is always an upside if you look hard enough

I imagine that every SIG manual has that same disclaimer. 1911, classic, etc.

I just checked the P210 manual, page 23:

"WARNING - DROPPED PISTOL

All SIG SAUER pistols incorporate effective
mechanical safeties to ensure they only
fire when the trigger is pressed. However,
precautions should always be taken to avoid
dropping a loaded firearm. Although extremely
unlikely, it is still possible for any loaded
firearm to discharge when dropped."

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:

quote:

(1) Dallas PD did not actually have a drop failure or any other safety issue with a department issued/used P320.
(2) Apparently based the decision to suspend the use of P320's on the safety warning in the Sig manual.
(3) Sig has no idea what Dallas PD is talking about.

Willing to wait for any facts that appear later. At this point, based on the reported information, it looks like Dallas PD bureaucracy is doing a CYA shtick. Or just plain incompetence.

Where did anyone in Dallas say anything about the manual being related to this?

That's just repetition of some forum post.

No. Per the leaked memo (which may or may not be accurate):

"Sig Sauer has identified that there is a defect in the P320 handgun that could cause the weapon system to go off when dropped."

Sig never said there was a "defect" that would cause the pistol go off when dropped. Dippy Debby was obviously referencing the manual regarding the danger of same. That's my take, since we have nothing but a pile of spaghetti on this thing right now.

For whatever reason, SIG is busy revising the manuals to change the language regarding "may fire if dropped."

I just checked the SIG website and only 3 pistol manuals are currently showing - P210, P320, and SP2022. Those three manuals have already been revised.