SIGforum
P320 Drop Safety in Question (Formerly DPD Recall thread)
July 31, 2017, 12:24 AM
YVKP320 Drop Safety in Question (Formerly DPD Recall thread)
quote:
Originally posted by evolution:
I said the same thing, it had to drop tested extensively with the US Army.
I wasn't there and I know nothing but the most common interpretation of the GAO report on Glock's appeal to MHS contract award is that no gun was drop tested. Maybe people in the know could confirm or deny.
July 31, 2017, 05:38 AM
Factor8quote:
Originally posted by YVK:
quote:
Originally posted by evolution:
I said the same thing, it had to drop tested extensively with the US Army.
I wasn't there and I know nothing but the most common interpretation of the GAO report on Glock's appeal to MHS contract award is that no gun was drop tested. Maybe people in the know could confirm or deny.
Statements like this are how rumors get legs. You say something that you have no proof of and you ask for someone to "confirm or deny" it. All it takes is one person to say they heard the same thing and it becomes internet fact with out any form of proof.
Do your research and post a source, not just what you think you read some place else by a post like the one you posted.
July 31, 2017, 05:44 AM
4MUL8RIf you google dfw police p320 the top hit is this thread.
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Trying to simplify my life...
July 31, 2017, 07:06 AM
jljonesI wonder if the "drop safe" is going to become the new "double click"?
July 31, 2017, 12:40 PM
YVKquote:
Originally posted by Factor8:
Statements like this are how rumors get legs. You say something that you have no proof of and you ask for someone to "confirm or deny" it. All it takes is one person to say they heard the same thing and it becomes internet fact with out any form of proof.
Do your research and post a source, not just what you think you read some place else by a post like the one you posted.
I most certainly did my research and I posted a source, a GAO report. If someone here is truly familiar with it and could shed a light, they understood what I meant. However, if you'd like a specific quote from there, here it goes below. It is pretty evident that the section H testing wasn't completed before awarding the contract. As it was explained to me, section H is environmental testing that includes drop tests.
The protester also contends that it is unclear whether the Army intends to complete the
section H evaluation prior to award of the production CLINs. Glock Supp. Comments,
May 9, 2017, at 1-2. The Army asserts that the Sig Sauer handguns “(both compact
and full size) will undergo all possible Section H Source Selection testing,” prior to
general distribution of the handguns. Supp. AR at 1-2. The base award is limited to the
CLINs for the weapon systems component package, as indicated by the specific CLIN
and SoW references in section M. RFP at 387, ¶ M.1.1.9 The RFP provides that
“award [of the “production” CLINs] will be made based on an integrated assessment of
the results of the evaluation” of the section H factors. RFP at 296, ¶ H.4.1
And a full report, if you'd like
http://www.gao.gov/assets/690/685461.pdfJuly 31, 2017, 02:49 PM
rscalzoVery odd that when the same agency had issues with their newly issued M&P in 2014, it made the local newspapers. Yet this seems to be only internet lore.
July 31, 2017, 04:24 PM
cwm1150There is a video on ar15.com of a 320 firing when dropped in a similar thread in GD. Can't figure out how to post it here.
July 31, 2017, 05:00 PM
zoom6zoomyeah, I read that thread on the other board. It pretty much boiled down to "some guy at a gun store said"...
I have my own style of humor. I call it Snarkasm. July 31, 2017, 11:31 PM
grumpy1On another forum a member there, who is a LEO, was able to get some information from the Dallas PD. Here is what he found out.
"First off, the head of Dallas PD's firearms training center wanted to know how my chief found out about this. It is still under investigation and reports are still being written. As an on-going investigation no one was supposed to aware of this incident.
Secondly, the P320 has been temporarily discontinued for use by the Dallas PD. There was a training incident in which an AD occurred when a pistol was accidentally dropped.
Finally, SIG has been advised and they want to examine the pistol."
So someone dropped a loaded P320 during "training" and the person who dropped it claims the P320 just discharged by itself and thus the department temporarily is discontinuing it during the on going investigation.
On a couple forums this has been reported and being in an email sent to Dallas LEOs;
"Sig Sauer has identified that there is a defect in the P320 handgun that could cause the weapon system to go off when dropped. The Sig Sauer P320 was approved for primary duty, secondary primary duty, and back-up use. The Firearms Training Center is currently working with Sig Sauer to obtain a solution for the safety issue. Until Sig Sauer is able to find a solution to the safety issue, the Sig Sauer P320 is no longer approved by the ****** Police Department for any use."
Now that is a BIG difference compared to "Finally, SIG has been advised and they want to examine the pistol" and no one has been able to substantiate the claim that SIG has identified a defect in the P320 that can cause it to go off when dropped.
August 01, 2017, 01:16 AM
GraygunsFriends,
Nothing being discussed here appears to be based in fact from what my informed sources tell us. I can't go into details, but I can comment on some of what's been "reported".
I've personally drop-tested a bunch of P320's in various conditions and in excess of ANSI/SAAMI protocol, and cannot get them to fail.
The so-called P320 drop test video referenced by many is an outright fraud intended to damage SIG SAUER and the P320, in my opinion. I can perhaps replicate what it portrays, only by removing a bunch of springs and the striker lock first. I defy the makers of that video to come forth and prove they can make a stock P320 fire like that in my presence, under controlled conditions. They can't.
In any event I predict this decision by someone in DPD will not pan out to be objectively reasonable or justifiable, and will be reversed.
-Bruce
Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms: SIG SAUER
Visit us at
http://opspectraining.com/product-cat/videos/ to order yours, and Thank You for making GGI the leader in custom SIG and HK pistolsmithing and high-grade components.
Bruce Gray, President
Grayguns Inc.
Grayguns.com / 888.585.4729
August 01, 2017, 07:00 AM
evolutionThank you Bruce! It's great to see dad this from a name we know and trust.
August 01, 2017, 02:07 PM
PASigquote:
Originally posted by YVK:
I wasn't there and I know nothing but the most common interpretation of the GAO report on Glock's appeal to MHS contract award is that no gun was drop tested. Maybe people in the know could confirm or deny.
The US military isn't going to accept a gun that hasn't been drop tested and everything-else-tested about a billion times. I call BS on this whole notion.
August 01, 2017, 04:17 PM
sgquote:
Originally posted by grumpy1:
On another forum a member there, who is a LEO, was able to get some information from the Dallas PD. Here is what he found out.
"First off, the head of Dallas PD's firearms training center wanted to know how my chief found out about this. It is still under investigation and reports are still being written. As an on-going investigation no one was supposed to aware of this incident.
Secondly, the P320 has been temporarily discontinued for use by the Dallas PD. There was a training incident in which an AD occurred when a pistol was accidentally dropped.
Finally, SIG has been advised and they want to examine the pistol."
So someone dropped a loaded P320 during "training" and the person who dropped it claims the P320 just discharged by itself and thus the department temporarily is discontinuing it during the on going investigation.
On a couple forums this has been reported and being in an email sent to Dallas LEOs;
"Sig Sauer has identified that there is a defect in the P320 handgun that could cause the weapon system to go off when dropped. The Sig Sauer P320 was approved for primary duty, secondary primary duty, and back-up use. The Firearms Training Center is currently working with Sig Sauer to obtain a solution for the safety issue. Until Sig Sauer is able to find a solution to the safety issue, the Sig Sauer P320 is no longer approved by the ****** Police Department for any use."
Now that is a BIG difference compared to "Finally, SIG has been advised and they want to examine the pistol" and no one has been able to substantiate the claim that SIG has identified a defect in the P320 that can cause it to go off when dropped.
Did everybody miss this?! I've noticed folks having issues with their 320s, and that's only the ones who post on forums. It's obviously having teething issues, but the drop and AD is a serious problem.
The govt chose the lowest bidder, period, and stopped the testing to insure a sig win. The 320 will be problematic when issued, moreso than the M9.
August 01, 2017, 04:26 PM
stoic-oneExcept, we don't even know if it was an AD or if SIG has actually looked at the pistol, yet.
A LOT of speculation and internet keyboard warrior(ing) going on. Even Abe Lincoln didn't know what to believe on the internet...
August 01, 2017, 04:54 PM
az4783054This is to coincidental to a very recent P30 complaint on the HK forum.
A new member with only 13 posts reported that when he decocked his P30, it discharged a round. There were no witnesses to the event. The OP denied finger on the trigger ND. He supposedly returned the pistol to the factory who said they tested it and found nothing wrong. He's not satisfied with their findings. I suggested he send the P30 to Bruce for independent testing.
Whether it actually happened cannot be determined but the thread went on for days with a lot of speculation, assumptions and theories. There were some internet commandos who suggested HK was intentionally covering up a design flaw.
Maybe the liberals are trying to discredit firearms companies.
Beware of a man whose only pistol is a 1911, he's probably very good with it.
August 01, 2017, 05:39 PM
grumpy1quote:
Originally posted by stoic-one:
Except, we don't even know if it was an AD or if SIG has actually looked at the pistol, yet.
A LOT of speculation and internet keyboard warrior(ing) going on. Even Abe Lincoln didn't know what to believe on the internet...
Exactly. Someone being trained "claimed" that the P320 went off on its own. I would bet a finger was involved such as trying to catch a pistol that was just dropped. HUGE embarrassment and other possible consequences/liability involved with a ND. Investigation is on going.
August 01, 2017, 07:46 PM
jljonesquote:
Originally posted by sg:
Did everybody miss this?!
Nope. But, I also remember MULTIPLE times that an agency has ditched a gun, and then we find out that that the gun in question had been dicked with by the officer (Remember the M&P with LA?), the ammo was out of spec (KSP with the 4566), and so on. Lots of times I have read or heard of an agency that pulls a gun for no confidence, and it turns out that it wasn't the guns fault.
There are also plenty of cases where guns have been pulled to where it was needed (NJSP with SIG, and NCSHP with the M&P). What differs in the cases is in those cases, industry people had connections to actually get fact to sort through the information. Guess what? Nada being said about this except ONE internet board that is being repeated all over the net as fact.
I think I'll wait a bit longer before panic sets in.
August 02, 2017, 05:04 PM
jbourneidentityPage 25 of Sig Sauer P320 Owner's Manual: "WARNING-DROPPED PISTOL. If dropped, the pistol may fire. Keep the chamber empty unless actually firing! ANY FIREARM MAY FIRE IF DROPPED."
I suppose this is a basic CYA for the lawyers, but it is certainly worded poorly. Perhaps it should've said, "Always exercise physical control of your pistol. If dropped, a foreign object can inadvertently contact the trigger and cause the pistol to fire...".
That would make it sound a lot less like the P320 has an inherent mechanical flaw in the drop safety, as the wording in the current owner's manual seems to do. It's all about context and semantics these days, I suppose.
August 02, 2017, 05:23 PM
BBMWMy assumption based on nothing: Some Dallas LEO, inexperience in gun handling dropped his P320, went to catch it (which we know shouldn't be tried), and in doing so, snagged the trigger. They then either intentionally lied about how it went off, or legitimately if incorrectly thought in the confusion, that the gun hitting the floor caused the discharge.
August 02, 2017, 05:38 PM
grumpy1quote:
Originally posted by jbourneidentity:
Page 25 of Sig Sauer P320 Owner's Manual: "WARNING-DROPPED PISTOL. If dropped, the pistol may fire. Keep the chamber empty unless actually firing! ANY FIREARM MAY FIRE IF DROPPED."
I suppose this is a basic CYA for the lawyers, but it is certainly worded poorly. Perhaps it should've said, "Always exercise physical control of your pistol. If dropped, a foreign object can inadvertently contact the trigger and cause the pistol to fire...".
That would make it sound a lot less like the P320 has an inherent mechanical flaw in the drop safety, as the wording in the current owner's manual seems to do. It's all about context and semantics these days, I suppose.
This is nothing new and only by SIG. Other manufacturers have similar wordings. I have read more than a few times for other manufacturers where manual states to not have a round in the chamber until you are ready to fire. Most never read everything in the manual for their firearms but now some are scrutinizing every word in the P320 manual and somehow coming to the ridiculous conclusion that wording means the P320 is not drop safe. As far as warnings short and to the point is always best otherwise you lose the readers interest or confuse them. Don't drink and drive is a perfect example.