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Then a whole lot of LE are mall ninjas. I think this is being over thought. The way I was trained and subscribe to is that the press check is one of many ways to confirm that you are loaded for your duty weapon. Like reholstering it isn't a stress event. It isn't a race. Unlike Steven Seagal you don't constantly do it. When you load your duty weapon it is one of many acceptable ways to check for a loaded chamber. The next step is to top off your mag then holster. That's it. Other ways to check the same thing have been noted. All are safe and work.

Nothing mall ninja about doing that. Dropping the mag checking you are one down and topping off is no better or worse. Many ways to skin the cat.

The important point is that when you load up for reals, you do something that checks that the chamber is loaded. Whatever that something is, just be sure it is firstly safe and secondly effective.

Most of my Guns have the extractor bump or the chamber cutout. I find the chamber cutout nearly useless to my eyes. The extractor bump works but it is pretty benign to my touch. I don't trust it because, for example my 320, the bump isn't much. Eyes closed and concentrating I can feel it but it never seems obvious. For me one press check, at home/range/wherever, when I initially load is simple, safe, and leaves no doubt.

Tomatoe tomato.
 
Posts: 1433 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
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I think we have split off into two areas in this thread. 1- manipulating the gun in front of the chamber and 2- Press checks.

1- I am not a fan of doing business forward of the chamber at all. Some guys I know and like (Frank Proctor being one) advocate it and you can not dispute that it is a much faster way of manipulating the gun. I've played with it some and had so-so results. If you want to do things that way? Fine.

2- Press checks. Seems that mall ninja status is applied automatically with a 10 percent discount on check out. I press check the gun a couple of times per day. Anytime the guns LEAVES MY PHYSICAL CONTROL I tug on the magazine, and I see me a little brass before it goes back to the holster. I feel that anyone who doesn't do this in my line of work is a fool. It is far too easy to pop the magazine button going in and out of a lockbox at the jail. If you have a little preflight routine of tugging the mag and seeing brass, you know that you are ready for take off. However when I look at a little brass, I grab the slide from the rear.

In loading the gun, I watch the round chamber, so there is no need to press check it.


_______________________________________________________________________
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"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 30715 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
I press check the gun...Anytime the guns LEAVES MY PHYSICAL CONTROL...


This. Which isn't often, but this.


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Posts: 624 | Location: Oregon | Registered: March 18, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Why did this get so complicated? If you want to press check...press check. If you don't...don't.

Re using the front serrations, if it makes you happy...do it. At your own risk.


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Posts: 3962 | Location: Northeast | Registered: June 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
2- Press checks. Seems that mall ninja status is applied automatically with a 10 percent discount on check out. I press check the gun a couple of times per day. Anytime the guns LEAVES MY PHYSICAL CONTROL I tug on the magazine, and I see me a little brass before it goes back to the holster. I feel that anyone who doesn't do this in my line of work is a fool. It is far too easy to pop the magazine button going in and out of a lockbox at the jail. If you have a little preflight routine of tugging the mag and seeing brass, you know that you are ready for take off. However when I look at a little brass, I grab the slide from the rear.


This for me also. It sounds real cool kid to say "all guns are always loaded" and to me, that's another venue for complacency to develop, where checking is not. I say that based on my own ND, and an episode when I was younger.

I went to my uncle's farm and he took me with him to the safe to pick out a sidearm for the day. He chose a Ruger Single Six mentioning that he hoped to zip the snapping turtle that had taken up residence in his little pond. He pulled it from the safe, and holstered it without checking it. I asked why, and he replied with the cool kid "because I always keep all my guns loaded all the time so they're always ready to use, I never have to check them." I didn't know what to say, so I offered "Dad told me always to check anyways." We drove down to the field and started clearing brush from the access trail he was trying to clear to his deer stand. Around lunch, we headed up to the pond, and sure enough, the turtle was swimming across the surface. My uncle drew the Single Six, told me to plug my ears and cocked it, drawing a bead on the turtle. The hammer dropped and nothing happened. He waited for a hangfire and nothing happened. So he gave another chamber a try. Another click. There were five clicks before there was a BANG!, which clearly missed. The turtle slipped under the surface about as unhurried as a turtle can while my uncle click-snapped a few more times in agitation. There was one live round in the cylinder and the rest were empty brass. How, and why he created that situation, even he couldn't guess.

My smartass thirteen year old self couldn't resist saying: "I guess that's one reason why Dad told me to always check a gun once you've set it down, even if you know it was you that did it." I'm sure he loved being big-brothered by proxy. He didn't respond. Not much was said the rest of the day.

All guns are always loaded unless verified otherwise. All guns I depend on for any reason whatsoever are verified to be loaded before I step away from where I picked them up. I grew up under Reagan: Trust, but verify.


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Posts: 8163 | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
fugitive from reality
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
In loading the gun, I watch the round chamber, so there is no need to press check it.


The act of loading a pistol also has a feel and sound that's different from the slide dropping on an empty chamber. You may not hear it under stress, but loading to make ready isn't really stressful. Also, if the pistol in question has an external extractor that can serve as a loaded chamber indicator. Several manufacturers mark their extractors as such.


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Posts: 5401 | Location: Newyorkistan | Registered: March 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by esdunbar:
I think press checks are for mall ninjas.


I have to agree for civilians. In all the years I've been carrying I've never had to do a press check because:

a) I am very deliberate when I load a pistol. If it in a holster you can bet it is loaded.

b) Literally every pistol I've had I've been able to see the brass of the case in the chamber from wither the top or side of the ejection port... not that it was needed because a).

c) I'd be more worried about the slide not returning properly into battery

d) the more hollywood style gun-manipulating one does, the higher the odds for a mistake. As a civilian CCW, I load my pistol after cleaning, put it in the kydex holster. From there it lives on my hip or in my safe... never leaving my control, never leaving the kydex holster. I have no need to be constantly stroking my slide for a confidence boost. After any range trip it gets cleaned, and I start the cycle all over.


If I was a LEO, or had a shared gunsafe where my pistol is often out of my direct control... I might feel differently.
As for front serrations, I like the aesthetic of them, but can take them or leave them.
 
Posts: 287 | Location: OH | Registered: September 10, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I press CK only once until I unload for a reason.
 
Posts: 616 | Location: GA | Registered: September 03, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Pale Horse:
quote:
Originally posted by Prefontaine:
I have a lot of respect for Ayoob, but to me this is just common sense.


Yeah but you gotta remember Ayoob doesn't just write articles for guys with experience. What is common sense to you may not be to a guy who is new to guns.

I mean sure it should be common sense to not out your fingers in front of the barrel but it doesn't hurt repeating I suppose.

Ayoob doesn't write just for noobs. The dudes he claims blew off their fingers weren't noobs, they were experienced shooters. It's possible to be experienced and wrong. I've done it, you've done it, most of us have probably something wrong but accident, lack of concentration, lack of knowledge, faulty judgement, etc. Seems Mas was just trying to help anyone else from blowing their fingers off. I've never been comfortable watching it on youtube, but it was good to hear Mas address it specifically, and back up the reality of the danger with knowing experienced shooter dudes missing fingers. That's gotta be a bitter lesson.




NRA Range Safety Officer, Distinguished Expert Shotgun Pistol
Lover of the US Constitution
Wile E. Coyote School of Gunsmithing
2 Guns short of never having enough
 
Posts: 6005 | Registered: February 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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Careful, competent shooters never make mistakes like having unintentional discharges, getting parts of their anatomy in front of muzzles, etc.

Until they do.

If I was fond of self-righteous pontification, I’d say that nothing pertaining to guns scares me as much as the arrogance of presumed infallibility. Most of the time, though, that arrogance affects only the individual. As long as he’s not pointing the gun at me or someone else, it doesn’t matter to me how he loads: Blow a finger off? Find yourself in a self-defense situation with an empty chamber or no magazine? No skin off my nose.

The exception to that is of course if I have responsibility for teaching someone, and then I’ll point out that making assumptions about how things will play out in unusual situations or even when we’re distracted and not fully focused on the task is a dangerous habit when it involves dangerous objects like guns.

I always thought the expression “Trust, but verify” was an inane oxymoron, but at least the “verify” part makes sense. The verification should not, however, be more dangerous than not verifying.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 37328 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yeah, people with experience do stupid things. People get lazy and want to catch the chambered round when they are unloading in their hand. Works great until the primer hits the ejector on guns like a Glock. And then the round detonates in their hand. I too am guilty of that in the past.

There are lots of stuff that can bite you with any level of experience if you let it.


_______________________________________________________________________
www.opspectraining.com

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 30715 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The guy behind the guy
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I see that it makes sense to check the weapon whenever it leaves your physical control. As a private citizen, it never leaves my physical control.

If I had to check after it left my control, I'd just use the chamber indicator. Why not just use that? If you don't have one, then ok. If I had to check the chamber, I certainly wouldn't do it all tacticool like I see some doing it...thumb up over the front part of the slide, swinging the 4 fingers of your strong hand up over the top of the slide, etc.

I see people doing that shit when they have a chamber indicator. It's unsafe and mall ninja to me, that's where my comments come from.

Pulling the rear of the slide back a bit when you have no other way to check and you had to put your gun in a locker at the jail...that's clearly a different story and a smart thing to do it seems.


E.S. Dunbar
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Posts: 5979 | Location: Toledo, Ohio | Registered: April 19, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
addicted to trailing-throttle oversteer
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Given my job and in considering how many different guns I handle every day at work, yes I check for clear with each and every one of them before handing off to a customer or coworker and when receiving them back prior to putting back into the display case or long gun shelves. Left my hands, out of my control despite what my eyes may be telling me...yeah, I check. Roughly 9 times out of 10--most likely more--I'll rack the slide completely open; the rest at least a press check. With semi-auto handguns I hold on the back of the slide to operate the check. No tactical 'forward slide pinch grab whatever' technique for me, regardless of any existing serrations that might be provided.

I have however discovered an unnatural love for the latest craze of pistoldom: the reflex red dot. Boy, are press checks e-z-az-pi with a RMR installed. The subsequent palm print left on da viewport glass is kinda sucky, dough... Razz

In the rest of my life I've pressed checked at the shooting range; when shooting with companions and buddies sometimes other things can distract. Chatter about women, cars, women, guns, women, kids, women, work, women, hunting, women, booze, women...you kinda get the picture. And yes sometimes I will forget whether or not I've actually racked a cartridge into the chamber. And I also freely admit that I've also fired on an empty chamber. So yeah, I will press check in those instances.
 
Posts: 7674 | Location: Drippin' wet | Registered: April 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by wrightd:
Mas Ayoob in the Oct 2017 edition of Guns Magazine, commenting on full-length slide serrations:

"I've also never been thrilled with any design encouraging the shooter to grasp the slide close to the business end. I have known two very capable shooters who blew fingers off their hands working their slides from the front."

Couple of thoughts:

1. Sounds like good advice to me. I've seen fellows on youtube doing press checks by pinching the front of the slide underhanded. I always thought it was a little unsafe.

2. I guess Mas' "very capable" shooters weren't as capable as he thought. It's hard to maintain pistol shooting capability without fingers.

What say you ?


If Mas says it, I believe it. He's an amazing shooter and handgun expert.
 
Posts: 1635 | Location: Florida | Registered: September 07, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
......Works great until the primer hits the ejector on guns like a Glock. And then the round detonates in their hand. ......

Some 1911's were also prone to that way back when. It was after an "improvement" was made to the ejector on some 1911's. Went from the standard length J.B design to "new and improved" long ejector. Theory was more reliable ejection. Some cooked off with hands over the port. After that, I never manipulated the slide on any pistol with any body parts over the port.

I couldn't see any problem with ejection in the originals, but long ejectors became all the rage. A selling point. Lost track of whether that is the standard nowadays or if 1911's have the original style.


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Posts: 3962 | Location: Northeast | Registered: June 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Back in the day, you used to press check by hooking your thumb in the trigger guard. This led to problems with potential negligent discharges.

I have front cocking serrations and like them when I'm running a WML - it just makes life easier.

Regarding whether press checking is smart or not - some people are just too stupid to own guns. If you're not checking the status of your weapon then you're doing it wrong.


AKA John E. Hearne

"Shoot deliberately" - Wyatt Earp
"Tache/psyche effect - a polite way of saying 'you suck.'" - GG
"The 8th Marines dominate an environment. You, with your pistol, merely exist." - GG
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Posts: 1683 | Location: Northern Mississippi | Registered: November 06, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
No Compromise
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Murphy's law is an adage or epigram that is typically stated as: "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong".

I agree with Murphy. If it can happen, it will happen. This means ix-nay on the press checks. Bear claw the pistol in combat, slingshot at range. Practice, practice, and when you're all done, practice some more.

The answer for me is to follow the same rules every time I'm near a firearm. Guns are always loaded. Carry guns are always chambered. Never put anything in the trigger guard until you are about to fire. Never point a gun at anything you do not want to destroy. Be sure of your target and what's behind it.

I never have to worry what condition my firearms are in. I practice these rules every time I come near one of my guns. I follow these rules and simply know what condition my firearms are in.

These rules are law.

If a firearm leaves my physical control, I am firing someone else's gun, or am employed where I must carry, that might change things.

H&K-Guy
 
Posts: 2730 | Registered: April 08, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Spread the Disease
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I press check from the REAR every time I put on my carry weapon, even though it stays loaded.

1. Put on holster.
2. Check mag is loaded and full.
3. From the rear serrations, pull slide back ~1/4" to verify that it is chambered.
4. Holster.
5. Go about my day.

My finger is never on the trigger.

I have caught malfunctions where cycling the slide did not chamber a round. (Not on MY carrry gun!)


________________________________________

-- Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past me I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. --
 
Posts: 13970 | Location: New Mexico | Registered: October 14, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
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quote:
Originally posted by Nipper:
Why did this get so complicated? If you want to press check...press check. If you don't...don't.

Read my mind.

Rarely has the question ever been in my mind "Is this loaded?" If it's out of the safe and not being transported, cleaned or used for dry-fire practice: It's ready to rock. Always.

I've press checked maybe twice in my entire life.

quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Yeah, people with experience do stupid things. People get lazy and want to catch the chambered round when they are unloading in their hand.

I don't do that because I'm lazy. I do that so the round doesn't go flying off into some corner or end up in the dirt, mud, what-have-you.

Forgot I had a snap cap in my P320 I'd been dry-firing, once. Just as I was getting ready to put it in the safe, dropped the mag and racked it. (If I don't intend to store it loaded, I always do that last check.) *tick* *clatter* "What was...? Oh yeah."

Still haven't found that snap cap.

quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Works great until the primer hits the ejector on guns like a Glock. And then the round detonates in their hand.

I honestly had no clue that was even a possibility.




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
 
Posts: 12275 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
His diet consists of black
coffee, and sarcasm.
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If they are not an obtrusive one like those found in some Ruger models, I like loaded chamber indicators, even if nothing more than a little cutout so I can see the cartridge. Not for checking that the chamber is empty, but that I did load it. It is my usual practice to keep all guns loaded at all times, but I may want to clean them, dry-fire practice or show them to another person (I avoid the latter as much as possible), and something might distract me.



"My wife is dragging me to this stupid play. Somebody please shoot me."
-- Abraham Lincoln
 
Posts: 19394 | Location: Johnson City/Elizabethton, TN | Registered: April 28, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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