SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  SIG Pistols    Mas Ayoob - fingers safety tip
Page 1 2 3 4 

Moderators: Chris Orndorff, LDD
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Mas Ayoob - fingers safety tip Login/Join 
Member
Picture of wrightd
posted
Mas Ayoob in the Oct 2017 edition of Guns Magazine, commenting on full-length slide serrations:

"I've also never been thrilled with any design encouraging the shooter to grasp the slide close to the business end. I have known two very capable shooters who blew fingers off their hands working their slides from the front."

Couple of thoughts:

1. Sounds like good advice to me. I've seen fellows on youtube doing press checks by pinching the front of the slide underhanded. I always thought it was a little unsafe.

2. I guess Mas' "very capable" shooters weren't as capable as he thought. It's hard to maintain pistol shooting capability without fingers.

What say you ?




NRA Range Safety Officer, Distinguished Expert Shotgun Pistol
Lover of the US Constitution
Wile E. Coyote School of Gunsmithing
2 Guns short of never having enough
 
Posts: 6005 | Registered: February 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oriental Redneck
Picture of 12131
posted Hide Post
I don't do press check.


Q


 
Posts: 13724 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Orive 8
posted Hide Post
quote:
I have known two very capable shooters who blew fingers off their hands working their slides from the front."


Maybe the key here is "When you do a proper press check, your trigger finger should not be on the trigger."

Done lots of press checks over the years, all 10 digits still intact.


------------------------------------------------------------
Tomorrow's battle is won during today's practice.
 
Posts: 1104 | Location: Mt. Lebanon, PA | Registered: June 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 12131:
I don't do press check.


I don't either. The edge of the rim is visible on most pistols.

Even if it isn't visible: If the round stripped from the mag so you are able to top off and it isn't lying on the ground by your feet, there's about a 99.99999% chance it's in the chamber.
 
Posts: 6588 | Location: The Red part of Minnesota | Registered: October 06, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Nipper
posted Hide Post
This has been the case for a couple of decades. Front serrations started with competition shooters when they began using optics. Optics on the slide prevented the traditional press check manipulation from the rear. Front serrations allowed shooter to bring hand UNDER the slide and use the serrations for press check.

It is dangerous, since under stress it is easy to overhang the fingers on the front of the slide. In addition, shooters will use the front serrations to clear a malfunction. Use of these serrations is banned in our defensive shooting group and NRA courses. It's an accident waiting to eventually happen, primarily under stress. Kudos to Mas for reinforcing this.

I witnessed one of our better shooters in our LGC defensive shooting group nearly blow his fingers off. He was very experienced, totally safe and a good shooter. I was standing behind him and witnessed the whole thing. Had a hard jam. Was manipulating the slide over the front serrations trying hard to clear it to continue the drill. Bang. Severely burned his pinky, but didn't lose any flesh or bone.

Others can do whatever they want. None of my business. Just don't give me any simple-minded stuff about just keeping finger off the trigger. Shit happens, even to "experienced" shooters.

I've instructed or observed (as lead instructor) about 2,500 students over 25 years. A mix of rank novices all the way up to experienced shooters. NRA basic up to personal protection. In that time, I've seen every thing that can't happen...happen. Safety is not setting up conditions that COULD result in an injury.

Similar to the Serpa holster, which we also banned in our classes and many national level classes. It's too easy to use the same trigger finger that releases the retention device to reflexively press the trigger as well.

Personally, I use the slingshot position for any slide manipulation. The overhand technique can allow the front of the palm (pinky side) to overhang the chamber area. I don't want any body part over the port or muzzle.


______________________
An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing. --Nicholas Murray Butler
 
Posts: 3963 | Location: Northeast | Registered: June 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Quiet Man
posted Hide Post
I don't use front cocking serrations and strongly dislike them for aesthetic reasons. "Charge, press check, and holster a loaded weapon," is part of our range commands during qual courses, and despite none of the issue weapons in the nearly 20 years I've been on having front cocking serrations no one seems to have had a problem or shot their fingers off.

From a theoretical standpoint, I think the press check is one of those problematic things we do in training that could lead to problems in the real world under high stress. I feel the same way about the "Tac-reload." If I'm behind cover and have time to top off my weapon, I likely have time to pick that partially expended mag up off the ground instead of juggling two magazines and dropping both of them. If I don't have time, then that partially expended magazine probably isn't going to help me anyway at that point.
 
Posts: 1433 | Registered: November 13, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Pipe Smoker
posted Hide Post
The only thing that I don't like about my X5 Comp is its forward slide serrations. I never use them, and think the pistol would look better without them. Well, I wouldn't mind if its beaver tail was shorter too…




Cognition?
On.
 
Posts: 2388 | Location: San Diego | Registered: July 26, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
posted Hide Post
I can take them or leave them, but my hand is never in front of the barrel when I do it.

Honestly I can easily use the rear serrations and usually just spy the brass through the gaps in 99% of the guns I own. That and the magazine is -1 round, pretty logical that the round is in there. Wink
 
Posts: 36330 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Orive 8
posted Hide Post
Maybe this guy should have done a press check – a True Story

Our department had us qualify while on duty, you would get a call to come to the range and you would respond to shoot your qualification.

I had Det. W. called up to the range to qual and he arrived 30 minutes later or so. Now on two of the four qualifications, you would shoot your duty ammo. So he arrives, steps up to the line and gets set to shoot.

First String is at 3 yards – target turns and you draw and engage target with 2 rounds in 2 seconds. Det. W. is set; the target turns and he draws and fires – gets a loud CLICK. (Never mind that he fails to Tap/Rack/Bang or whatever you call your immediate action drill) He looks at his gun and looks at me over his shoulder.

We check his weapon, a SIG P226 9mm and find the chamber empty. When I asked Det. W. when was the last time that he had checked his gun, he replies “I don’t know, maybe last qual?” (We ran quals every 3 months….)

So for 3 months, give or take; he worked with a pistol without a round in the chamber. Maybe, just maybe, a press check would have been beneficial to that Det.

Then again…..

And in my previous post, I should have stated “When you do a proper press check, keep your fingers out from in front of the muzzle AND your trigger finger off of the trigger.”


------------------------------------------------------------
Tomorrow's battle is won during today's practice.
 
Posts: 1104 | Location: Mt. Lebanon, PA | Registered: June 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Nipper
posted Hide Post
10-4 on the aesthetics. I'm in a minority, but I don't like front serrations, square trigger guards and rails.

Rails, at least, are functional for those that need them. The other two are not. I should qualify the serrations to exclude guns with optics that prevent normal manipulation from the rear.

Much of the stuff is pure marketing. Gotta sell guns. If there's a demand for features we hate, that's just business. Not knocking it, just a fact of life/biz. How about Mil-Spec (ha ha) "inventory" stickers on the M11-A that fall off.


______________________
An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing. --Nicholas Murray Butler
 
Posts: 3963 | Location: Northeast | Registered: June 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of 1lowlife
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 12131:
I don't do press check.


Me either.
All readily available firearms are locked and loaded..


_________________________________________________
Learn it, know it, live it.......Brad Hamilton

Certified iPhone and Glock fan-boi..

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!
 
Posts: 3654 | Location: Great State of TEXAS | Registered: July 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Pipe Smoker
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Nipper:
10-4 on the aesthetics. I'm in a minority, but I don't like front serrations, square trigger guards and rails.
<snip>

I'm with you on everything except the square trigger guards. For me, they're functional – I put my left forefinger there for better stability. Feels very natural. Personal preference, of course.




Cognition?
On.
 
Posts: 2388 | Location: San Diego | Registered: July 26, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of az4783054
posted Hide Post
It's so Hollywood... Roll Eyes


*************************************************

It never ceases to amaze me where naive people think they're safe from harm. There is no way to predict when something bad is going to happen nor where it will occur.
 
Posts: 7784 | Location: Somewhere north of a hot humid hell in the summer. | Registered: January 09, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
why would you put your fingers in front of your pistol with your finger on the trigger. he must know a bunch on stupid shooters.
 
Posts: 441 | Registered: January 13, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Nipper
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Pipe Smoker:
quote:
Originally posted by Nipper:
10-4 on the aesthetics. I'm in a minority, but I don't like front serrations, square trigger guards and rails.
<snip>

I'm with you on everything except the square trigger guards. For me, they're functional – I put my left forefinger there for better stability. Feels very natural. Personal preference, of course.

Not knocking it at all. However, most shooters tend to displace shots using this method. Some, like you, find it beneficial.


______________________
An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing. --Nicholas Murray Butler
 
Posts: 3963 | Location: Northeast | Registered: June 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Glorious SPAM!
Picture of mbinky
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 12131:
I don't do press check.


I am in this camp. I make dam sure I know what firearms I have made condition one, and they are usually the ones I am carrying. If I have any doubt I drop the magazine and lock the slide back and check.
 
Posts: 7138 | Registered: June 13, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I was trained to press check and encourage it.

Of course, that's a press check using the hand over the rearof the slide.
 
Posts: 754 | Location: hampton roads, va. | Registered: October 03, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Nipper
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Operations:
why would you put your fingers in front of your pistol with your finger on the trigger. he must know a bunch on stupid shooters.

See my first post. If you've ever observed a large number shooters under stress, you would understand. Classes are stress. Gunfights are your worst nightmare.

If you've ever instructed or observed a class, you would see the stress levels involved. Sure, it's not a gunfight, but it still injects stress for many people. Theories and opinions don't matter when you are responsible for every student and instructor. This ain't theory or opinion. It's keeping people from leaving the range with no more holes than they came in with. Unlike a lot of class structures, ours are HEAVY on actual shooting. We are fortunate to have a large cadre of good unpaid instructors. Our instructor to student ratios is 1:1.

Not trying to beat you up. But safety is first and everything else is secondary.


______________________
An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing. --Nicholas Murray Butler
 
Posts: 3963 | Location: Northeast | Registered: June 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Prefontaine
posted Hide Post
I have a lot of respect for Ayoob, but to me this is just common sense. I can check my chamber on my pistols with my eyes and see the cartridge. If it's dark and I don't want to use a flashlight, I can feel the side of the pistol and feel the indicator that pops out to tell me it's loaded.
Press checks are for someone else. All my stuff is loaded anyhow so I know it's loaded and treat them all as loaded.

It's cool in the movies though, like Vincent Hanna/Al P doing it on an elevator trying to get ready to chase Neil McCauley. Great scene.



We don't sell no g damned trout. T-bone steaks.
 
Posts: 8079 | Registered: January 16, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
Picture of henryaz
posted Hide Post
 
My method is to drop the just loaded mag, after chambering a round, and see if a round is missing from the mag. Since I shoot 8+1 single stacks a lot, it is the "barney" mag I drop before I load a full 8 rounder. I also barney for 17 and 21 round mags. But the method works with any round mag.
 
 
 
Posts: 7255 | Location: South Congress AZ | Registered: May 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2 3 4  
 

SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  SIG Pistols    Mas Ayoob - fingers safety tip

© SIGforum 2017