Many years ago, I had a .22 conversion unit on a 1911. Spent a day in the river bottoms shooting. Cleared the gun by removing the magazine, racking the slide a few times and looking in the chamber, saw nothing but black, thumb lowered the hammer and headed home. Got home, took the empty magazine out. Racked the slide a half dozen more times, locked the slide to the rear, looked in the chamber, saw no brass, pointed the gun down at my bed (safest place in the room) and pulled the trigger. Gun fired.

I swear, I thought somebody had shot at me through the window. That was the wierdest moment in my life. Saw the brass spinning on the floor, and, a hole in the comforter.

After much trying to figure out what had happened I discovered that the extractor had broken. Gun shot fine and ejected the empties when fired, but, not when you hand cycled the slide.

The gun was filthy, it had hundreds of rounds of .22 through it that afternoon. I tried to recreate what had happened. Apparently, when I racked the slide a half dozen times, all the crud and crap from the breechface covered up the back of that little .22 round, so, when looking, all you could see was black. Black looks like an empty hole. I was 100% certain that the gun was empty. It obviously wasn't.

At the time, I didn't "visually and physically" check for an empty chamber, now, I do. The one thing I did right was still treat it like it might go off (which it did) by pointing it at the safest bullet stop in the room. Did I WANT to destroy the bed? No, but, compared to everything else around, I was WILLING to destroy it rather than anything else.

It's cases like this that reinforce to me why I always recommend a good revolver, specifically a Ruger SP101, to a first-time handgun owner.

As gun owners, most of the ND stories I hear are from experienced gun owners. We, as gun owners, can sometimes become complacent after being so comfortable around firearms. This story however, shows the flipside; an untrained, inexperienced gunowner having a ND.

quote:

Originally posted by sigalert:

quote:

Originally posted by Fenris:
I am far too OCD. I rack at least 3 times after I think it's clear. I figure even if I've left a magazine in, the rounds flying through the air may get my attention.

Mistakes happen. Plan for them.

+1 on the locked slide.

Racking the slide doesn't mean a damn thing, no matter how many times you do it. Pull it back, lock it, visually inspect the chamber, then stick your finger (preferably pinky) in the chamber to confirm clear.

It's simple, and it works.

ETA: I apologize if I seem condescending. I'm just following the SIG Manual. It doesn't say rack 'X' number of times until you're confident there isn't a round in the chamber.

I feel like I'm coming off as an ass. I'll step away from the thread now.

sigalert is absolutely correct in this case. Racking the slide without visually and phyisically inspecting the chamber doesn't mean a damn thing.

Case in point, magazine is dropped, round is in the chamber. Lets say murphy creeps up and decides to break your extractor claw. Racking three times doesn't guarantee that round in the chamber is going to eject. Pull trigger. ND.

Thus, this is mainly why it is important to do both visually and physically inspect that chamber. What my buddy did was eject the cartridge with out double, and triple checking to ensure it was empty. He assumed it was cleared because he saw a round pop out.

A revolver was brought up. I do agree, it's an excellent choice for a new shooter. Unfortunately, still uncool to the unwashed masses.

Training is now priority.

quote:

Originally posted by Black Majik:
The best part, he can't find the bullet hole. He had it aimed at the back seat of his explorer when the trigger was pulled, however when we went to look for a bullet hole none was found.

Musta been a 9mm!
(donning flamesuit now)

On a serious note, the only ND I ever had was with a revolver I thought I'd cleared. Those of you recommending revolvers for beginners, I'd been a competition shooter for several years at the time, and still screwed up. Luckily nobody was around to get hurt, but to this day I treat every firearm as a ND waiting to happen.

Yes, he should have dropped the mag before clearing the chamber. So important to always know the status of the gun and to do press checks whenever in doubt.

But he also had his finger on the trigger and pulled the trigger when he shouldn't have. Someone has to yank on that trigger for a gun to fire. (Unless he was practicing dry firing in the car? ) Keeping one's finger off the trigger unless one intends to shoot is THE safety rule most newbies (and even some experienced shooters) have the most difficult time following. I tell newbies "finger off the trigger until ready to shoot". I tell them just because you're pointing a gun at a target doesn't mean you're always going to shoot it. I teach them to index on the frame of the gun. And yet, they load a fresh mag and their finger still creeps into the trigger guard. Its like we were all born with the instinct to put that finger on the trigger if we have a gun in our hands. No one has to teach that. Everyone instinctually just does it. Anyone who teaches a new shooter has to emphasize to their "student" to unlearn that bad and dangerous habit.

Glad he's okay and no one was hurt.

Wow Richard, if you can't teach the guy to shoot and be safe I don't know who can. (Don't tell him I said that. )

When I was in Afghanistan, we had a soldier in our platoon who ND'd into a clearing barrel after after clearing the weapon, then dropping the mag. It got a lot of people's attention. Just goes to show that even the most seasoned professional make mistakes.

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The point boys and girls (not to sound condescending) is to have multiple steps that cross check each other.

Right on!

Another example of cross-check -- consider two of the most important rules: 1) always point the muzzle in a safe direction; 2) never put your finger on the trigger until you're ready to fire.

Don't rely on just one of these rules. Use them both religiously. If you happen to slip up one one of them, the other one could save you (or more accurately, your target). Forget to point it in a safe direction? Lucky you didn't have your finger on the trigger. Alternatively: Slipped up and let your finger touch the trigger and fired? Be glad you remembered to point it in a safe direction at the same time.

They back each other up. When one fails, the other covers.

I have drilled into my son: "A gun is always loaded, always", and we treat them all that way. Until the mag is dropped, and the action is opened showing a clear barrel, we always assume it is a loaded gun.

It's always a bit amusing and a lot sobering to read about someone else's mistake. We've all made them or will make them.

During felony stop in service training with our issued 870 shotguns, the instructors drilled into us to leave the chamber empty for the exercise, exit the door, release the safety, rack the slide and address the target.

One macho male officer didn't listen. The chamber was loaded, he clicked the safety off while he was pulling the gun from the scabbard and had his finger on the trigger. He destroyed his console radio and floor board with a rifled slug. We got a laugh out of his mistake. It wasn't the first time and wasn't the last...

I understand and practice all the above points but do not understand how someone can drop the mag--then rack the slide and not notice that the round did not eject. If the extractor broke and round stayed in the chamber how did they miss it not flying out and then didn't look and feel carefully in the chamber for the missing round. Sleep walking?

The OP mentioned his friend raked the slide, the dropped the mag.

Thus a shell would have ejected, leading him to believe the gun was empty.

His inexperience kept him fromknowing he also chambered another round before dropping the mag.

I have done it both ways, drop mag/rack slide or rack slide/drop mag. I doesn't matter. I also visually check that the chamber is empty and the mag is empty or even not there. I never thing or assume a gun is empty, I know it is. If I'm dry firing and put the gun down to take a drink(no Alcohol). When I pick it back up I check it again. If I'm dry firing and stop to look at something else, before I start dry firing I'll check it again.

The only ND's I believe in are when I'm shooting my Glocks with the Ghost trigger jobs, 1/8" reset and I double tap the target when I pull the trigger once. Meaning between the recoil and releasing the trigger enough to reset I actually pull the trigger twice.

All these other ND's thinking the gun was unload are really dumb ass discharges.

Also keep your damn finger away from the trigger until ready to shoot. I have yet to have a gun go off without my finger on trigger.

When it looks like this, it might be unloaded...

quote:

When it looks like this, it might be unloaded...

I can't see the chamber, it's loaded.

quote:

Originally posted by Jetfire:
I have done it both ways, drop mag/rack slide or rack slide/drop mag. I doesn't matter.

It does matter. Drop Magazine, Lock Slide to rear, Visually and Physically inspect chamber.

Anything else is reenforcing bad habits.

I think its good for us to see a thread like this every now and then (provided noone was hurt). It just serves as a reminder to not become complacent, no matter how "pro" we think we are. It can happen to anyone. Stay alert!

I had a ND with a 12ga flare gun IN MY HOUSE(!) when I was 13 yrs old...the [un]lucky year. All kind of bad luck that year, I swear. FD was called, po-po came, and I washed a shit-ton of firetrucks, but there wasnt much damage and no one was injured. SOOO lucky was I, that the flare didnt get stuck in the sheetrock on the ceiling, but instead bounced and landed wedged between the wall, the carpet, a cloth recliner, and a wicker(!) basket full of newspapers. And that was the LUCKY outcome!

Note: Some flares have potassium perchlorate, which provides them with their own oxygen...ie they are damn near impossible to extinguish until their fuel is spent. Water? Good luck. Shoe smother? Uhhhh I wouldnt recommend it. Wet towel? HAH! Those fuckers just burn and burn.

I tell you what, after that and ever since, I have been VERY careful with guns. I just KNEW that flarepistol was not loaded, I knew it! Now I check properly at least 2 or 3 times in a row. That thing really spooked me and I am now grateful for it, for I am always very careful...but that doesnt mean it cant happen again...remain ever vigilant!

The FD guys still call me flare when they see me, over a decade later. They loved that one.

quote:

It does matter. Drop Magazine, Lock Slide to rear, Visually and Physically inspect chamber.

Anything else is reenforcing bad habits.

Yes it is best practice but you miss my point. I don't care if you do it that way all the time or some other way. A gun is not unloaded to me until I visual and hopeful physically inspect it to be empty. This is the most important thing in making sure a gun is empty.