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Member |
I've got a P226 ST that I dearly love. It has the sweetest soft recoil. I recently installed an SRT kit and I like that a lot as well. My gripe is that the gun has an occasional fail to extract. Not a ton of them, 8 total out of 2500 rounds, but there have been 4 in my last 3 range trips, so it seems to be increasing. There is nothing like a jam to ruin what would otherwise be a perfect gun. I want to make this my home defense gun but I can't 100% trust it. Do you guys have any suggestions? This is my favorite gun to shoot but it's my only one that jams. It drives me crazy.
Edit - The SRT kit went on before the last range trip “Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” - Winston Churchill - |
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Glock Stock & Barrel |
How's the mag springs? Have you cleaned the extractor?
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ |
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Member |
Mine did this a lot. Are you using nickle-plated cases by chance?
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Member |
I've been using the same Mecgar 18 rounder magazine since December. I had 2 FTEs before then. I'll try a new mag next session.
 I use a Q-Tip to clean the extractor, but I'd be lying if I said it fits behind the extractor hook very well. It's also kind of hard to see if it's fouled.“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” - Winston Churchill - |
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No I've never used anything but brass. “Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” - Winston Churchill - |
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Freethinker |
What cartridge is the gun chambered for and what ammunition are you using?
Can you also describe exactly what happens when the failure occurs? “Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.” — Leo Tolstoy |
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Member |
I had a P226ST.
Experienced the same thing. Turned out to be the extractor. I swapped it myself and all was good again. The bad in the gun:  How the new and the bad compare:  P229 SAS 9mm, P228 German 9mm |
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cdrross, I'm very familiar with your saga, I remember those photos. My extractor edges are sharp.
To sigfreund; It is 9mm. It has failed with virtually every ammo I've used: WWB, Blazer Brass, Fed Champion and American Eagle. I'm one of those freaks who logs everything. After the FTE the casing is half in the chamber, detached from the extractor. The new round is jammed up below it. “Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” - Winston Churchill - |
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Member |
Ok... trex the idiot here. I put a bright light on it so I could photograph it for you...there is some crud stuck under the hook. What do you guys use to clean there? Obviously I'm not doing a good job. My older eyes had a hard time seeing that until I took my 110 luminens Surefire on it just now.
 “Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” - Winston Churchill - |
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Member |
Well, if it is failing to extract the cartridge rather than failing to load the next round, then you can probably rule out magazines. I would send the slide to a Sig smith and get a new extractor and extractor spring installed .
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Member |
I just took a toothpick to the crud. There was not much at all. Just enough to blacken the toothpick end. I'm not sure that was the cause.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” - Winston Churchill - |
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Behold my Radiance!  |
hiya! We've had reason to study this issue and I have come to some conclusions as to causes and solutions. The cause(s) can be more of a complex set of conditions which conspire to decrease extractor efficiency, increase case adhesion and speed unlocking timing.
Certainly the suggestion about a dulled or chipped extractor is the first place to start. Crud under the extractor or a bound / weak extractor spring / plunger are next, but these obvious possible causes are not often found to be the primary or exclusive source of 226ST FTE's in my experience. Some individual slides exhibit a deeper-than-normal cartridge pocket, and if this presents in conjunction with extractor cuts and plunger bore that are too far "out" the extractor may have both inadequate tension and projection. That, we correct by refitting the extractor. But that's still not the whole enchilada. The ST frame is heavy, and the 9mm ST slide can be fairly light. I propose a theory that these pistols unlock a bit faster than their alloy-framed counterparts. Gray's Unified Theory of P22X FTE's holds that this faster unlocking period, along with brass cases (such as WWB) known to be softer and less consistent in rim dimensions than some others, yields increased case adhesion forces that a marginal (or perhaps any) extractor cannot always overcome. We also note that changes in powder burn rates and bullet weights can help in some instances. That's still not the end of it as I see it. We encounter some P226 chambers that appear "ringed" to some degree, usually just a past the edge of the feedramp intrusion. Some of this is caused by the abrasive action of many case mouths as they scraped across the top of the chamber durting feeding. On the other hand, some such defects look like an annular ring further in the chamber at some point. Such indentations would be implicated in FTE's and I have observed such in most 226's that had this problem. It is corrected by rebarreling, or perhaps by careful chamber lapping and polishing to restore a smooth surface. Finally, we often find a built-up, amalgam-like deposit of very smooth, dull fouling in the chambers of such malfunctioning pistols. This crud seems to survive undetected against the normal cleaning regimes of our customers, who invariably swear their guns are clean. We have noted that this FTE problem doesn't manifest itself immediately after thorough cleaning, but normally only after some number of rounds have been fired. So, imagine a load with soft brass using a medium-rate powder, and with a smallish rim. It's fired in a slightly ringed chamber that has some fouling hammered into the chamber walls. The slide unlocks and begins to cycle whilst residual chamber pressure is still high enough to grip the case firmly. (Try to pull against only 20 pounds with your thumbnail, and you will likely tear it off. You can see it doesn't take much to potentially overcome the extractor.) In this scenario, a weak extractor will bounce out off the rim a little as the case extractor groove contacts the front face of the extractor with great force as the barrel unlocks, allowing the extractor to slip off the rim. The slide, already having had enough energy imparted to it to cycle, will continue rearward to pick up a new round. The case, meanwhile, will be released as the pressure drops and be forced to the rear by remaining pressure, to be stopped by the next round being fed from beneath. El Jammo Supremo is the result. To support this theory, we observe that: the FTE issues are typically worse with handloads, and much worse with handloads using WWB or other "cheap" training-ammo brass. The comment about nickel cases is equally valid, as this can also increase case adhesion. The condition is worse with under-sprung pistols. The condition can be worse with heavier bullets and certain powders, suggesting a narrow range of pressure / time that seems to exacerbate the problem. Possible corrections can include regulating the chamber (or replacing the barrel), replacing the recoil spring, refitting or replacing the extractor assembly, adding mass to the slide, changing bullet weights and powder burn rates, using harder brass of proper sizing, and increasing lockup dwell. I hope this helps you! -Bruce "Truth is found in the certainty of one's own ignorance. I never learned anything from hearing my own voice." -Col. W.P. Gray II "At our best we are only God's hands." -Beki "Tactical what?" -Bruce |
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Whoa! Thank you Bruce for the amazing (and comprehensive) analysis. I have been longing to send this ST to you for a little sweet magic. This might be the time to "pull the trigger" and have your guys look at the extractor problem as well. I'm going to check for rings and crud in the chamber. All I've ever shot with this gun is 115 grn. cheap stuff as you may ahve seen in my earlier post.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” - Winston Churchill - |
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Member |
If everything looks good with the extractor. I would change the recoil spring to a new standard weight one. If the slide is coming back too fast (weak recoil spring), it might not eject properly. This can also happen if the recoil spring is too heavy, as the slide will not come back far enough for the round to hit the ejector to eject the cartridge.
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Is it just me, or does everyone else feel like Bruce is the one smart guy in class spoiling the bell curve?
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Keith, in the short time I've been here, I'd say he is one of the few who attended class. |
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Member |
I just got back from a conference where I put about 2500 rounds through my 220 in 4 days. I'd already done the stainless steel SIG extractor dance and had it fixed by the factory without further problems. On day one I had 1 FTExct late in the day, but as the class went on, they started getting more frequent. By day 4, I had 4 of them. There happened to be a Eastern European SIG rep there, and he took a look at my gun. He replaced the recoil spring for me, the slide catch spring, and recommended I stick with my factory mags instead of the Novak/ACT-MAG's I had been using. One of, or a combination of, these things fixed my problem as I finished the remaining 500-600 rounds of the class without further issue. The old recoil spring was visibly shorter than the new one by about 3/8" when placed side by side. The older spring was original to the gun and probably only has around 2000 rounds on it. Replacing a recoil spring after 2000 rounds seems low to me, but it's my first SIG and if that's what the gun wants, so be it. According to the rep, the Novak/ACT-MAG magazines are the product of am imperfect implementation of plans stolen by a MEC-GAR engineer when he got fired. He said he's got some old MEC-GAR's that work fine, but I'll probably be ordering some factory 10 rounders and sticking with them from now on. "One hundred rounds does not constitute firepower. One hit constitutes firepower." Gen. Merrit Edson, USMC |
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It's been a while since I have been around here; I think that my ST and my mistakes with my handloads helped craft the Gray unified FTE theory . . . I expect a co-authorship when the theory is published.  ---------------------- Shooter Ready? Standby!  ---------------------- |
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I don't have anywhere near the experience of Bruce Gray. However, problem solving has been a major facet of my career as a Mechanical Engineer for well over 20 years and I have found that trying the cheap and simple solutions first has worked well for me. If I were you I would replace the recoil spring and see if that solves the problem. With 2500 rounds downrange it's probably due for a new one. I would also check to make sure that the present spring was installed in the correct orientation, getting it backwards is easy to do and will really cause problems with slide velocity.
4 is now 5, P239-40, XDm-40, P229-40 Elite Stainless, S&W 67-1, and S&W 620 |
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I have a recently purchased used P226 stainless elite 9mm that was doing the exact same thing. The first time I took it out, it did it once in 200 rounds. The second time was 3 times in 300 rounds.
The ammo that it jammed on was all WWB 115g target loads. I shot other brands with no problems. I examined the jammed casing and you could see the mark where the extractor was hooked on but slipped off. After that, I thoroughly cleaned the gun including the extractor. I well lubricated everything. I recently went out and shot 250 rounds of Remington 115g target loads with no issues. I plan to buy about the same quantity of WWB target loads for the next range trip to see what happens. Sig P226 SSElite 9mm Ruger Mark II Target |
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