|Sigforum K9 handler|
You sell the steel case for scrap right along side the brass. My boy has made his own business picking up casings after my classes. He sells every bit of it. Sorting out the steel takes just minutes.
I get the fact that some here hate steel cased ammo. But, the arguments against really seem to be a stretch. And that is being polite about it.
"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011
Spent brass is apparently where the cash is at. Spent steel and aluminum cases, when found, went straight to the recycling bin, so I was told. The buyers of this reusable stuff apparently get their collective panties in a bunch when the "contaminant" level gets to some "certain point". So to keep the peace and also maximize margins, it's easier to say "no non-brass cased ammunition allowed" and be mostly done with it.
I was told by a friend who used to work at West Coast Armory that their spent cases at the time went to reloading operations, and that they paid well as long as the 'product' was as close to 'brass only' as humanly possible.
It always amuses me when people try to use cheap steel cased ammo in thousand dollar guns. As Judge Marilyn says, "The cheap is the expensive."
No, I don't watch, but sometimes overhear bits and pieces when on my laptop. My wife watches habitually. At least it's better than the "I killed my spouse and got away with it" channels.
Amongst the bickering I have to admit... I learned a lot from this thread. I joined this group earlier this month to learn/share from/with other SIG gun owners. Mission accomplished. I was raised with guns, hunting, fishing, and tobacco chewing. However I only started what has become a passionate hobby of range shooting with pistols 4 years ago. Started with S&W, then Glock, then... my first SIG 1911. Winner winner chicken dinner... I fell in love!
Understand, I am the guy that will only use SIG parts and accessories (waited 9 months for Romeo 1 Pro for my M17). I am also particular when it comes to ammo. Defense load in mag 1 of my trusted 220 and both 1911s is SIG 230 grain +P and practice is SIG 230 grain ball. Also, my 9mm SIGs have mag 1 loaded with SIG 124 grain +P and MOSTLY use SIG 124 grain ball for practice. I say mostly because I will run the cheapest available in my 365 and occasionally through my M17, 225, and 229 (all < $700 investment) for plinking.
All that said, since I have never had any failure with any ammo through any of my SIGs, it is just my anal tendency preference to use only SIG ammo on my higher valued weapons. Not that they can’t handle cheaper loads, I just feel better (and spend less time cleaning) using the higher priced (notice I don’t say higher quality because I can’t) SIG ammo. In fact, I just purchased 100 rounds of 90 grain Winchester Super Clean to train my Son In Law on the 225 I am giving him for his birthday.
So, I won’t hate you for using steel. Don’t hate me for staying with brass. Make fun of me if you must for wasting my money but... it is my money and my choice based on my experiences.
Peace brothers and sisters.
Guns kill people
Just like like;
Pencils misspell words and
Forks made me fat.
It’s all good friend. I don’t hate anyone for not using steel cased ammo. My Irish gets up when they follow your statement with dumb internet lore about how it will damage your gun. I don’t even mind when people say stupid shit like they won’t use it in a thousand dollar gun. Like somehow their princess gun can’t or shouldn’t take the mythical abuse. It’s just dumb. No one can produce even the slightest shred of evidence but you have intelligent people, knowledgeable people, on here repeating the same nonsense. It’s silly and it’s stupid. It’s an opinion that somehow to many has become science in their minds. Hence the covid Karen comment earlier.
It’s your gun do what you want. Punching paper or shooting steel for practice at nearly twice 5he price is, well, it’s a choice. Steel cased ammo is the most inexpensive shooting around if you aren’t a reloader. Hell I am a reloader but at 123 per case it’s not worth my time to reload anymore.
It's not lore. It is a cheaper made and lesser quality ammunition and that is why it is cheaper.
Is steel cased ammo more wear and tear on a gun, essential yes it is. You have steel on steel, versus brass (a softer metal) on steel. How much? Probably minimal, but who knows as nobody here except possibly a gun manufacturer is equipped to test it side by side in same conditions without other variables.
Is it dirtier, YES. Why, because the steel case isn't as soft as Brass and doesn't conform to the chamber as well. Plus the coating they have to put on it to keep it from rusting. As well as the powder they use.
It also has less quality control and more deviation between rounds. Usually steel will chronograph with more of a spread between rounds than quality brass fmj. So why go to the range to practice and use an ammunition that's not as accurate as something else and has more fliers.
Some gun manufacturers even say not to shoot it in their guns.
Most ranges do not allow it on their range. Every range near me does not allow it and there are a lot of them.
It is NOT even close to twice the price for brass ammunition. 30% more +/- sometimes less if you can find it on the right sale.
It's cheap ammo, you're cheap, and you like shooting it. That's great, but don't try to sell everyone else that it is comparable or the same quality. It's not. As aggressive as you are, one would think you're a salesman for Brown Bear or Wolf ammunition.
As for me, why would I want to skimp and put that cheap, stinky, smoky, dirty stuff in my Ed Brown, Wilson Combat 1911, CZCustom cz75, or SIG 210 or anything of the other guns I own? I don't. Nor would I buy a Z06 Corvette and put regular unleaded in it, when it needs and owners calls for premium unleaded. Plus there isn't a range I could shoot it at anyways. I've shot it before, once, won't do it again.
It's equivalent to telling someone that a Hipoint is just as good as a Sig. Will both of them function and shoot rounds, sure, but the quality isn't the same.
It’s cheaper because it’s made overseas and the steel case is cheaper to manufacture. So to recap overseas manufacture is cheaper than American made. Brass cases cost more to manufacture. What part of that do you not understand? All of it is my guess, you keep harping about how the price difference is “pennies per box” which is possibly the dumbest shit you’ve ever posted. Which is saying something.
You really should stick to boats. Unless you actually have even a shred of evidence to back up your nonsense. Which we both know you don’t.
God, you don’t even read well. Go find my quote that says any of the things you attributed to me. I’ll wait. You can’t though, I have repeatedly stated don’t shoot it if you don’t like it. What I have also said is knock off the stupid “it’ll damage your gun” nonsense. People who actually shoot a bunch know this isn’t true. Show any kind of proof as to damaging a gun. You can’t. Nobody can. It’s utter nonsense. As to chrono deviations, it’s clearly range ammo. You go to a bullseye match bring the premium ammo. You shooting any of the popular regimens, you wouldn’t even notice a difference. I would bet you straight up that you can’t even shoot close to the mechanical accuracy of any of your guns. Most can’t, myself included. So the practical element is that brass ammo vs steel is neglible at best. People on this forum shoot a metric shit ton. I do about a thousand centerfire a month when matches are open and that probably puts me on the low end of shooters. If steel damaged guns there would be evidence. Hell Sig 365’s break more parts than anyone can contribute to steel. Lol
Your other stuff is stupid as shit. Put 87 octane in your Z06 and it will take very little time to understand why premium is required. Besides which the engine was SPECIFICALLY designed for premium. Your gun, even your precious ones weren’t.
As for price, you keep repeating your same lies. 3 months ago, prior to covid, I placed my standard order. 3 cases of Tula. $123 per case. That’s $6.15 a box. They added $16.00 total to ship all three cases. That’s 5 bucks and change per case, spread that over the 20 boxes that make up a case and it adds a quarter to the price. Tell me the best price you were paying per box prior to covid. Ammoman and SGAmmo if you were wondering. Tell me the story of pennies per box again jimmy, it’s always good for a laugh.
There you go again with all of the personal insults. So if someone doesn't agree with you, posts logical information and facts, and you start name calling. You're a real tough guy, behind that computer screen. Mr. tacticool.
All pistols were designed for BRASS AMMO, it is the standard specified material for ammunition. With the exception of a few commie pistols like the makarov. That is FACT.
Yes, brass as a material is more expensive. It is also softer, so yes brass on steel is going to have less wear than steel on steel when both metals are moving at a high rate of speed, that's physics buddy. Like I said, the added wear is most likely very minimal but it is there.
Get your precious steel ammo near a saltwater environment and let me know how it fairs. They do make brass ammo in the same part of the world they make steel ammo too you know.
Even if I'm shooting range ammo, I don't want fliers. No I cannot shoot to my abilities of my guns, but I certainly don't want them shooting worse accuracy than they're capable of in my hands.
I've gotten 9mm fmj brass as low as $9.
Here's a video that proves the accuracy differences even between the 3 main steel manufacturers and the results are shocking, in several different guns. Chronographed and all. But i'm sure you're going to argue with that also.
Oh brother. I’m not sure you even watched that video. He didn’t compare steel to brass. He compared steel to steel. He also said the accuracy was good his words. He also said it was snappy like a 40 but he’s young so I will ignore that.
I’m glad you have bought brass for 9 bucks a box occasionally. Steel sells that cheap all the time. So best case 30% more and most times more. Your math skills just don’t seem up to the task of recognizing how much that adds up for high volume shooting. To put in jimmy terms, at your best price, every 3 cases I can buy a new barrel.
|Web Clavin Extraordinaire|
FWIW, steel cases have been around since at least the 1890s, if not earlier. Aluminum has been around since just about as long too.
I don't think any cartridge firing gun was ever "designed" around a particular case material (sure, sure, disclaimer for those futuristic caseless guns).
We just have used brass because it was more readily available and easier to work with the technology present when cartridge firing guns were developed. Similar to how 19th and early 20th c. machine guns have brass parts out the wazoo: easier to work with and make complex shapes with the technology of the time.
I mean, seriously, we used paper-hulled shotshells for how long before plastic took over?
Chuck Norris put the laughter in "manslaughter"
Educating the youth of America, one declension at a time.
Don’t confuse jimmy with reality. He still can’t grasp that 3 bucks per box difference (best case) isn’t just “pennies per box”. His exact words. I might as well argue with my Corgi.
|Do the next|
Some years ago I watched a video where a guy ran a few thousand rounds of steel vs brass through some rifles.
The rifles shooting steel broke extractors, exhibited far more wear in the barrel, and were far dirtier.
The price difference between the steel and brass cased ammo was enough to pay for replacement extractors and a new barrel.
Make of that what you will.
Additionally, malfunctions only came when shooting brass after steel without cleaning, when residue that built up in the chamber with steel rounds that didn't expand to seal as well stuck to the sides of brass that did expand.
Bob we are talking about handguns. That video you referred to was also a basic ammo dump. They didn’t run those rifles hard, they ran them hard and ugly. It was a mag dump after mag dump. Rifles got crazy hot and they just put on gloves and went on. So it is reasonable to say if you run them in that manner, which short of a firefight with unlimited ammo and continual rapid fire you would wear out parts. Ran in more normal usage the results might vary.
Also, the reason we are talking about handguns is that steel cased ammo in rifles is easier to document adverse results. Stuck cases, fouled chambers, etc.
In handguns you don’t see these results.
Arguably as well, in rifles, the broken extractors are due to sticky extraction causing extra stress on the part, not steel wearing on steel causing the extractor to break.
|Do the next|
I made no claims about the reasons why the extra wear happened, merely that it did. I don't care why an extractor breaks more often shooting steel ammo, whether it's the hardness of the steel or the extra fouling. That doesn't matter.
Results might vary with different usage. The point is, with steel cased ammo it is possible, if not necessarily likely, to see increased wear in certain areas. The difference in cost of the ammo might make that acceptable to some, while with others it might not.
You workin' for Putin ?
Free ammo, amiright ?
I’m fighting for the truth! Lol
Bob, apples and oranges my man. Watching a video on steel cased ammo in rifles and then making the leap that same issues occur in handguns is nonsensical and no one ever shows proof. I’m glad you liked lucky gunners goofy “tests but it has nothing to do with wear in handguns. Nothing.
As for more wear might happen, without any evidence of such, don’t you think it’s a little silly to keep repeating the stupid shit you’ve read on the internet. Even though you e never seen any actual evidence? Use your fucking heads guys. Someone states something as fact. They provide zero evidence. It’s repeated ad nauseum. You now believe it. Take a pocket knife and scratch a brass case. Now do the same to the steel case. It’s mild steel. Think you could do that to any steel that was hardened?
If you don’t like it don’t shoot it. Don’t spread stupid internet nonsense though. It doesn’t wear on your gun and cause breakage. With the billions of rounds bought and shot eventually someone would think to take a picture or two right? Or lucky gunner would run a 10k torture test of steel. They don’t because nothing would happen.
You are not educated enough on the subject to know the truth. Just because you've shot a few thousand rounds in your hand guns does not make one an expert on the subject. When you take several different identical guns and shoot the same number of rounds through them,in the same exact conditions, steel in some, brass in others, then take the parts to a lab and measure the actual barrel tolerances and various wear on wear items, only THEN will you be able to be an expert and the know the truth.
You're cheap, you shoot cheap steel ammunition made of lower quality components (steel cases, steel cored bullets, cheap gunpowder, and hard primers) with various manufacturing tolerances. I can assure you that all of the people that are posted below are more knowledgable than you or I. Yet, you'll dismiss ALL of them as BS. I know I know, you know more than the NRA too. We all know that you're the Wolf and Brown Bear spokesman Vladimir......
Someone posted more wear in a rifle, you dismissed it. WTF is the difference between steel causing more wear in a rifle, but somehow a pistol is supposed to be different? How and why?
"While I don’t generally recommend steel cased ammo, it’s not going to hurt your rifle in limited amounts. If used exclusively however it will reduce the barrel life by about 4,000-5,000 rounds. Most if not all of this ammo uses a copper coated steel jacketed “bi-metal” bullet which increases wear on the barrel. In testing done by LuckyGunner Labs, rifles using Federal brass cased ammo were still shooting decent groups up to 10,000 rounds. With steel cased ammo the groups were all over the place at 6,000 rounds with many bullets tumbling and key holing.
The other problem with steel cased ammo is that the cases don’t expand the same way that brass cases do. This causes carbon build up between the case and the chamber wall. This build up can cause stuck cases. Sometimes these cases will stick so severely that it is difficult to remove them even with a cleaning rod. It is even worse if you fire a bunch of steel cased ammo then fire brass cased right behind it in a dirty chamber. Then the brass case expanding normally really sticks to the carbon left behind in the chamber.
So if you are going to use steel cased ammo I recommend breaking the rifle in with decent brass cased ammo first. Up to 100 rounds, the more the better. Another problem with steel cased ammo is a lot of it seems to be somewhat underpowered which can cause short stroking issues. If the gun is broken in first with brass cased ammo this helps seal the gas system somewhat which will make the lower powered steel cased ammo work a bit better. Also, make sure to keep your chamber clean. Keep in mind that it is going to foul pretty quickly with steel cased ammo."
"Steel cased ammo generally has bi-metal projectiles which significantly reduce the life of the barrel, increase throat erosion, and are very harmful to guns in general.
Now if you compare the overall cost of ownership including replacing parts, steel cased ammo is the better budget. "
"In reality, it’s not the steel cartridge case that’s the problem. The causes often stem from the buildup of corrosion in the chamber and rust-prevention materials used to coat steel cases in order to preserve the ammunition’s integrity in harsh conditions. Foreign manufacturers often use powders that are dirty and contribute to the chamber fouling.
Steel cases have different expansion and contraction characteristics from brass or aluminum. In semi-automatic firearms, this affects the timing of the cycle of operation, particularly in the extraction phase. Steel tends to keep the chamber sealed slightly longer, causing the case to stick in the chamber as the action is unlocking and attempting to extract the fired cartridge case.
The design of the cartridge has perhaps the greatest effect on how extraction takes place with steel cases. A tapered case fares much better during extraction, since once the seal is broken and the case moves even the slightest amount to the rear, friction between the case and the chamber is appreciably attenuated. This is apparent in higher-pressure cartridges.
The general rule for steel-cased ammo is high-pressure loads in straight-walled cases tend to have more extraction problems than high-pressure loads in tapered cases or lower-pressure loads in straight-walled cases."
|On the DL|
This is probably an almost universal truth. I can think of two niche pistols (I own an example of each) that are designed for a particular cartridge; the case material is not specified, but it is implied with particular cartridge.
First, the Seecamp .32 ACP was designed around the Winchester Silvertip JHP round. This is a very picky little pistol and will not function with FMJ ammunition at all, JHP other than the Winchester is a "maybe."
The other pistol is the H&K P7. Again, a unique design. 9mm NATO is the preferred ammunition, others might work, but the 9mm NATO is specified for this pistol and I have found it to be reliable, where I have had function problems with other ammunition.
Admittedly, these two pistols are definitely not mainstream design.
A mind is a terrible thing.
I've shot a lot of steel case ammunition out of AK47's. No issues, and they were designed to run on it. I've shot some steel case ammunition out of my various pistols, and it is a little less expensive. It's not as inexpensive as my own reloads, so I fire a lot more reloads than anything. I don't buy a lot of factory ammunition. Not when I can customize my ammunition to the firearm or application.
What I can't really do is resize the steel cases in my dies, without excess wear, or reload the steel cases. So I don't. I don't use it.
More power to those who do.
Will it wear out my firearms? I don't know. I don't care. I don't care, because I don't use it. Why would I, when it's more expensive than the ammunition that I routinely fire? Why would I when I can't reload it? Why would I, when I have to go buy it, instead of simply making it?
I don't see any way one could argue that steel case ammunition causes the same amount, or less wear than brass; that's ridiculous. Brass is softer.
Whether it's worth worrying about is another matter. I suspect that it's probably not. But if one is shooting a lot, it makes sense to reload, unless one has an exceptionally large budget (or someone else is buying the ammunition). If one has money to burn, then buy the ammo, and in that case, maybe steel is the choice. It's not mine.
The argument here is handguns only. Stuck cases in AR’s are pretty easy to find data on. The argument here is the presenting damage using handgun ammo but nobody actually can provide even rudimentary evidence of damage.
In the hierarchy of price, it’s simple. Reloading is cheapest, steel, is next then brass. I am routinely buying steel at 6.15 a box. (Outside of covid obviously). When you run the price of reloading it’s cheaper but not as cheap as it used to be. Components have gotten expensive. My buddy gets lead and makes his own lead bullets. That’s as cheap as you get. If you buy buckets you probably are running around 4 bucks a box. That’s cheap. Brass cased ammo is typically into the double digits. It’s a lot more expensive. It’s silly to argue that. It would be akin to me arguing steel is almost as cheap as reloading. It’s not even though the delta is less than between steel and brass.
As for “there must be more wear”. There’s theoretical and there’s practical. Theoretically, there probably is “more” wear. Practically the difference is so small as to be negligible. If not, we would see broken parts all over the place. There is no evidence to support this claim in handguns. The Lucky Gunner video test has nothing that correlates to this discussion in regards to handgun ammo. Nothing.
Like I said I like facts. Spewing opinions without facts is bullshit. I have looked high and low for evidence of broken parts caused by steel cased handgun ammo. I have asked for any first hand knowledge. What comes of that ? Nothing.
4 pages of a customer said steel ammo broke his gun. I wouldn’t put87 octane in a Ferrari. I’m not putting cheap ammo in my safe queen. None of that is evidence. It’s anecdote at best.
Shoot what you want but keep the internet lore to yourself unless you have proof. Your heart felt belief isn’t evidence. That’s all I’ve ever argued for.
Do what you want but don’t spread gun store employee nonsense as fact. It isn’t.
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