quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by The_Watcher:
Polymer is definitely here to stay. But how will that polymer hold up 30 years from now? 50 years from now? No one knows- and I always keep metal pistols in my collection.

Show me an HK VP70 (first year of production was 1970. That's 50 years ago) or a first generation Glock G17 (serial production began almost 40 years ago) that's crumbling to pieces.

I cannot as I no longer have a Gen 1 17 and never had a VP70. I can show you plastic car parts that crumble over time however. Is the VP70 formula the same as used today by most manufacturers? Maybe. But I think that if they had the durability there would be many more available for sale today. Most are gone.

quote:

Originally posted by The_Watcher:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by The_Watcher:
Polymer is definitely here to stay. But how will that polymer hold up 30 years from now? 50 years from now? No one knows- and I always keep metal pistols in my collection.

Show me an HK VP70 (first year of production was 1970. That's 50 years ago) or a first generation Glock G17 (serial production began almost 40 years ago) that's crumbling to pieces.

I cannot as I no longer have a Gen 1 17 and never had a VP70. I can show you plastic car parts that crumble over time however. Is the VP70 formula the same as used today by most manufacturers? Maybe. But I think that if they had the durability there would be many more available for sale today. Most are gone.

There’s a Glock 17 Gen 1 for sale locally. It’s ROUGH but I’d still shoot it.

quote:

Originally posted by The_Watcher:
I cannot as I no longer have a Gen 1 17 and never had a VP70.

You cannot because you will not find these pistols with frames deteriorating, because they don't exist in such a condition. I've heard this "deteriorating over time" stuff about polymer frames since I started using Glocks in the early 1990s, and no one has ever provided any evidence of such a thing. It's all talk and theory that hasn't proven out. It's wishful thinking on the part of some- a rationalization to justify their aversion to non-traditional materials in pistol design.

Except, now, after nearly 40 years of the Glock- and it's monumental influence on current pistol design- polymer is no longer a non-traditional material for pistol frames; actually, it's now the norm.

With the internet rumor mill being like it is, if there was the first hint of these polymer failures it would be all over the forums.
So far, nothing I've seen, and I'm not holding my breath waiting.

It's funny that this has come down to a discussion of the frame life of poly guns. Since the thread started as being about classic SIGs, which I read as the alloy framed P-series guns, I'd be much more worried about the wear life of alloy (aluminum) framed guns than the age of poly framed guns.

Then again, that wasn't the reason for this thread. We never did get a definition of what the OP means by "dead". I take it as meaning no longer sold. From that standpoint, being more expensive than the competition and having an out of favor fire control system are the bigger issues. I think the eventual life span of a gun is only tangentally related to how well it sells. I tend to think very few guns are sold as future heirlooms. I think immediate use, reliability, shootability and price are much more important.

And from the manufacturers standpoint, they probably wouldn't mind if the guns got shot out (or aged out.) Then they can sell another gun (all manufacturers like planned obsolescence.)

I'll call my metal Sigs dead when Glock develops a good trigger.

Do you have any plans to buy any new metal framed SIGs?

quote:

Originally posted by abnmacv:
I'll call my metal Sigs dead when Glock develops a good trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
It's funny that this has come down to a discussion of the frame life of poly guns.

Oh, cry me a river.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Do you have any plans to buy any new metal framed SIGs?

Hoo, boy. And here I've been sitting by the fishing hole looking for cheap 225A1s - on the theory that they should be cheap if SIG's discontinuing them. So, yes, but, ahhh, sorta.

quote:

Originally posted by Weshowe:
Gents,

Just scored a trade into a P225 and six spare mags. This is one of my favorite Sigs, but I notice that everyone seems to be going to polymer models. I just can't make myself go there and am a classic Sig lover...

Wes

Since I'm late to the game and all, being the reborn 'newbie'...

Not dead. Not alive and well, either.

They still sell for us. Barely, at least before the pandemic rush. But 320s--even the comparably priced X5 Legion outsells every P229 and P226 I order in from SIG. By a HUGE margin. We'll move 8 or 9 X5 Legions before one P229 or P226 sells. Nowadays moving 'classic' SIGs take months and drain profits before they finally leave the store. Meanwhile after the poly SIGs hit the floor, they leave the display case in days, maybe a couple of weeks at most. Same as Glocks.

One could argue striker vs DA/SA hammer. One can gripe about poly vs metal. But it ultimately comes down to price over all else. Cheaper to make, cheaper to sell at market. Also it's the new kid on the block, at least for SIG. And the Army's champion. And they can push them out the door faster and more cost-efficiently. Definitely not lost on SIG's product planners.

-MG

As far as plastics go, there's probably more than a few Vietnam-era M16's still around with their original plastic furniture. And that was before todays superior polymers.

"Do you have any plans to buy any new metal framed SIGs?

No, as age creeping up on my and need to sell a few guns not add to the collection.

And I figure you're far from alone. I have to think that the vast majority of people who want metal framed SIGs probably have all the need already. This does not bode well for them staying in SIG's line up.

quote:

Originally posted by abnmacv:
"Do you have any plans to buy any new metal framed SIGs?

No, as age creeping up on my and need to sell a few guns not add to the collection.

quote:

Originally posted by OTD:

quote:

Originally posted by 9X19mm:
CZ has been the one to continue to innovate and invest in r&d. Not Sig, not Beretta.

Pretty bold statement.

There was no CZ innovation since they used the roller delayed blow back action in the M52 and the DA trigger concept of the CZ75.
CZ is building it´s pistol around the SIG/Müller patent of 1946 with a trigger concept from 1975 using manufacturing technologies of the late 80´s.
The newer models are based on the SIG/Ludwig, Glock or Bubis desing. There is nothing inovative about it anymore since 1983
If CZ had invested into R&D or innovations, there would be patents in their handguns sector. There are non.
don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with CZ pistols, but "innovative" is not an attribut that would describe these pistols correctly.

I'd have to disagree. Why are they so popular on the competition circuit then? IPSC, USPSA?

It is not just about holding patents, it's what you can do with them. The lower bore axis, long dust cover, and great trigger a just a few things CZ has done right. They also have adopted a few custom appointments like barrel bushings and bull barrels in to their production line. Did they invent or patent these ideas... no. But they make the best use of them, which is why people buy them and they are so popular now. And they are all metal, like the classic Sig P226, P210, X5, et al.

quote:

Originally posted by monoblok:

Not dead. Not alive and well, either.

They still sell for us. Barely, at least before the pandemic rush. But 320s--even the comparably priced X5 Legion outsells every P229 and P226 I order in from SIG. By a HUGE margin. We'll move 8 or 9 X5 Legions before one P229 or P226 sells. Nowadays moving 'classic' SIGs take months and drain profits before they finally leave the store. Meanwhile after the poly SIGs hit the floor, they leave the display case in days, maybe a couple of weeks at most. Same as Glocks.

One could argue striker vs DA/SA hammer. One can gripe about poly vs metal. But it ultimately comes down to price over all else. Cheaper to make, cheaper to sell at market. Also it's the new kid on the block, at least for SIG. And the Army's champion. And they can push them out the door faster and more cost-efficiently. Definitely not lost on SIG's product planners.

-MG

This post pretty much sums it up. Price is king for many nowadays. Quality is second or third.

Sig is playing catchup in a plastic world.

quote:

Originally posted by 9X19mm:

quote:

Originally posted by monoblok:

Not dead. Not alive and well, either.

They still sell for us. Barely, at least before the pandemic rush. But 320s--even the comparably priced X5 Legion outsells every P229 and P226 I order in from SIG. By a HUGE margin. We'll move 8 or 9 X5 Legions before one P229 or P226 sells. Nowadays moving 'classic' SIGs take months and drain profits before they finally leave the store. Meanwhile after the poly SIGs hit the floor, they leave the display case in days, maybe a couple of weeks at most. Same as Glocks.

One could argue striker vs DA/SA hammer. One can gripe about poly vs metal. But it ultimately comes down to price over all else. Cheaper to make, cheaper to sell at market. Also it's the new kid on the block, at least for SIG. And the Army's champion. And they can push them out the door faster and more cost-efficiently. Definitely not lost on SIG's product planners.

-MG

This post pretty much sums it up. Price is king for many nowadays. Quality is second or third.

Sig is playing catchup in a plastic world.

Well, lets face it. A Tupperware gun will do everything a normal P series SIG will do for most everyone's needs. A glock 19 is half the price and it's dead nuts reliable, accurate, weighs less, has the same capacity as a 229 and lighter and half the price. Same goes for the carry gun arena. I prefer metal guns (and SA) over polymer and striker fired for most everything except carry where weight is a bigger factor. PLUS, we are in a recession and money is on most everyone's minds right now.

quote:

This post pretty much sums it up. Price is king for many nowadays. Quality is second or third.

Sig is playing catchup in a plastic world.

I agree with your comments regarding the competition realm. I don't compete myself, but I know a lot of guys at my club have transitioned to CZ, and having shot some of them I can see why.

As a fan of the Sig Classic line, I am sorry to see them on their way out...but the writing is definitely on the wall. The good news for those of us who like them, however, is there are some fantastic deals available on the used market right now, with guns that retailed for $900-$1000 going up in the low $400s range for police trades and a just little higher for private sales.

From the LE side, I was sorry to see my P229 go, but I have to admit the P320 makes a lot of sense. It's cheaper, lighter, modular, the grip is customizable to the shooter, just as reliable, and easily serviceable. Our qualification scores have gone up drastically across the board since we've transitioned to it, and I've not experienced any quality control problems with our guns (admittedly, our department isn't very big, but I'm not hearing complaints from others around us either).

IMO the P320 is the premier platform out there right now in the striker world. I've shot Glocks, XDs, M&Ps, polymer CZs, and even H&Ks, and I wouldn't trade my P320 for any of them. I wouldn't say at this point that they're playing catchup...I'd say they've surpassed the competition (and this is coming from a guy who carried a Glock daily for almost 10 years, and liked it). It's a better gun in just about every way, and they've got the contracts to prove it.

As to the concealed carry market, the P365 is eating everybody else's lunch right now...they can't hardly keep them in stock around here.

I'm sad to see sun setting on the classic P-series, but Sig is following the money, they're still making a quality product, and they're doing just fine.

I am at a total loss to understand how SIG P320s aren’t quality guns. They are accurate, reliable, easy to shoot, easy to maintain, will take plenty of abuse, and offer the features such as accessory rails, night sights, and modular grips that are considered by many to be standard these days and were unknown in the “good old days.” What’s low quality about them? The fact that they have polymer interchangeable grip modules is a benefit for weight and to suit the whims of different individuals, plus my hand won’t freeze to them in the winter here, not a lack of quality.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and if I could have only one handgun, with the choices being a garden variety P320 or an untouched by human hands, polished with unicorn hide Colt Python that causes sunshine blindness if viewed outdoors, I would take the more beautiful P320 in an instant. To me quality is what quality does, not superficial appearance.

Add me to the list of not dead. The Smith and Wesson 3rd Gen guns are dead, and now some of them are going for their original MSRP used. I'm still a bit pissed that I sold my 5906TSW for $500 when they're going for about $750 right now.

I do think they need to do more with Mastershop-like guns with the classic Sig's or expand out the Legion series, but it looks like Sig is doing just fine without needing to.

I believe the future is polymer frame pistols. But I also believe that there is a future for non striker fired pistols, just that many of those will have polymer frames with hammers, like the sig pro, HK P30, Springfield XDE, etc.