I Prefer either a Laws Rocket launcher or an RPG launcher. Because when faced with an Angry Bear I want a 100% certain One Shot Stop and believe that if you blow them into small bits that does qualify.
I've stopped counting.
A number of .357 Sig factory loads actually have less penetration than the various 9mm 147-gr loads due to higher velocities, thus the JHP bullets expand much quicker and more violently, leading to lesser penetration.
Buffalo Bore also didn't have a hard cast 357 Sig load last time I looked. Hard cast is preferred because the penetration path is straighter and longer than FMJ, which tends to deflect off bones.
There must be some really bad bears out there.
I think that some may have overlooked a 20mm or some SLAP rounds.
My other Sig is a Steyr...
That buffalo bore cartridge is still sub-400 ft/lbs out of shorter 4" barrels, or less. The numbers look better when pushing high velocities, but those wont be achieved out of most any handgun.
The site claims penetration in yards, up to six FEET of penetration in tissue and bone.
I don't think so. Even with hard cast lead. With less than 400 ft/lbs muzzle energy. Overpenetration in people, maybe. But six feet of bone and tissue?
Buffalo Bore's Tim Sundle on defensevagainst bears:
I speak jive.
31 with a spare magazine.
It's a great combination of umph and capacity, capability, reliability, cost, and size/weight.
Amply capable for two and four legged critters, most of the time.
The only handguns that are clearly better are heavier, bulkier, and have low capacity.
So bringing up the fact that the guy has made a living for over 30 years operating in and around BEAR country is "irrelevant" to a discussion about handguns for BEAR defense???
Am I reading you right???
Do you even think before typing???
|I Am The Walrus|
I've never fired the 10mm cartridge before but the G20 sounds quite interesting to me all of a sudden...
|Jazz Hands Ninja|
Hey fellas, not taking sides here, but I would appreciate you taking it to email and out of the thread please? Im still looking for suggestions and would like to keep the thread focused on my original question
NRA Certified instructor:
Home Firearm Safety
Personal Protection In The Home
Certified NRA Range Safety officer
Upper Hand Defense LLC
This guy isn't worth having a discussion with. I think there's several acceptable options for you and being that it's black bear you are interested in you have even more options. The easy choice for bear is 44mag, you can go bigger or smaller but if you are waiting to hear a be all end all answer for "the" perfect cartridge for bears you are going to be waiting for eternity.
There are experienced people who claim 9mm with proper ammo is ok and guys that think anybody who dosent use a 44mag is an idiot. There's no real answer to this question and you are going to get dozens and dozens of great ideas as well as a few jackasses here and there.
I would do some research and see what people who actually do this stuff use rather than ask for opinions.
No, you're not reading right. Your reading comprehension is poor.
Bringing up him being a pilot is very irrelevant, as is the issue of weapon use in Alaska, yet you persist.
The fact that he has over 3 decades of experience in close contact with bears as a professional guide is relevant insofar that he is FAR more likely to be capable than you or anyone else here. Unless you have that experience and background (is there a single person here who does?), then taking a 9mm to a bear fight makes you a gambler and a bloody idiot. When you have those three decades of giding professionally in bear country, check back and you may have a leg to stand on. Simply because superman leans far out the 40th floor window doesnt mean you can, or should. How's your reading comprehension on that?
Only replying to you to remind you that the OP has requested we stop arguing.
|Free radical |
Doubletap sells .357 SIG cartridges loaded with 180 gr WFN hard cast bullets: http://www.doubletapammo.net/i...3_332&product_id=563
They cycle fine in my SIGs (P226, P229, P239).
Bear defense is all about penetration. Read Foggy Mountain article on bear hunting. He notes 44 magnum jhp failure to penetrate but his 41 magnum with jsp works great. Lehigh extreme penetrator rounds bring performance level of common defense calibers up to the level of bear defense. Give it a try before you go out and spend $ on a new handgun for a walk in the woods.
Hard cast, but low-energy compared to typical .357 Sig rounds. The linked site suggests less than 450 ft/lbs muzzle energy out of a 4" bbl. It should be pushing 600.
It's a bit like the buffalo bore site claiming low energy but six feet of penetration. Forget the issue of expansion; a low energy round doesn't simply inexplicably gain new physical properties that allow it to penetrate to those depths in bone and tissue. There's nothing magic about it.
There seems to be an unfounded belief that if a low power round is given a special bullet, it's elevated to something that it never was.
A .357 Sig round with the same energy and a non-expanding bullet can be expected to have better penetration than an expanding bullet or a given energy, and a flat faced bullet with large meplat that doesn't expand is going to penetrate and disrupt tissue...but the ability to do so is velocity dependent and energy dependent, and it's simple physics that by dropping muzzle energy by a quarter, the effectiveness, penetration, and advantage implied by a particular projectile is weakened and lost.
Agree with penetration. Used to canoe/camp solo a lot in NY Tug Hill Plateau (West of Adirondacks) back in the seventies. Carrried a S&W M57 .41 Mag 4" SS with 210gr JSP's. Decent number of black bears up there.
Sleeping in my nylon A-frame tent. Middle of night I hear noises outside tent. Probably racoon. No. Probably coyote (yeah, had'em up there). No. Feral dog. No.
Small huff. Something poking the sides of my tent for awhile. Huffed again...BEAR! Since my tent was made of very high quality nylon, I didn't panic. Just froze, clutching my M57. Eventually, the bear went away.
Fortunately, I never got to test whether six rounds of .41 Mag were adequate for black bears. The gun DID prevent me from screaming or shitting my pants. Who knows what the bear would have done then?
Humor aside, what was important in that episode were two things: (1) Screw the friggin odds. At least I had a chance if the bear attacked. (2) As I usually did, my food was hung way up a tree on a long rope. Probably 20 yards away. If it was IN the tent, the bear might not have been able to determine what to eat first.
Outdoors is like walking the streets in populated areas. The odds of being attacked are low. However, it's always comforting to know you have the ability to respond with something other than screaming or shitting your pants.
An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing. --Nicholas Murray Butler
When I was in the woods more I went with a G20. We have Griz and Black bears here. If it was just black bear I would just go with my normal carry. I had a Raging Bull in 454 and it was a fun range toy but I may as well have toted a shotgun around for its size. I sold it and only miss the idea of it. I'd buy it again if I decided to ever take up handgun hunting but that's a whole other list of needs. Woods SD I'd go G20 for the 2 and 4 legged problems. You're more likely to run into the 2 but, planning for the 4 legged isn't a bad idea.
Go to Buffalo Bore's web sight and check out his Outdoorsman loads. There's a photo of a grizzly ( I feel its a very young grizzly form the photo) A fishing guide in Alaska sent it to him. He used a Smith & Wesson Model 39 loaded with BB's 9mm +P Outdoorsman. BB claims FOUR FEET PENETRATION.
These are hard cast flat nose bullets.
A charging full size grizzly? I'd prefer a 105mm Howitzer.
For here in Arizona (Santa Rits Mts) I carry BB Outdoorsmen 9mm+P in my Sig P320. We have mountain lions and jaguar (photos by game commission) along with black bears. Can't recall a single attack by a black bear in AZ. Nor mountain lion or Jaguar. Someone mentioned two legged things. We do have those and they have killed. (Cartel)
|186,000 miles per second.|
It's the law.
Thats it right there. I own (and used to carry) a 329PD, but I now carry the G20 in the Washington woods, for black bears or cougars (same as the OP). If I were in Alaska around bigger bears I would also carry a shotgun.
Take a look at the Wikipedia article on the Alaskan Kodiak sometime, it's a really serious bad ass bear. IIRC the males can top 2000 lbs. and hit over 30 mph in a charge. If I have something that big, fast, angry and with 5 or 6 inch claws and really big teeth coming at me I don't want to hope a bullet might slow him down, I want something that will blow him into a cloud of red spray.
I've stopped counting.
|so sexy it hurts|
We only have black bears here.
I carry a G20 in a hill people chest pack with a spare mag on my belt.
I did a lot of reliability testing with Underwood's 220 and 200gr hard cast with both factory barrel and an aftermarket, as well as with different spring weights.
Despite shooting about 1000 rounds of each, I didn't feel good about several feed and ejection probs with the aftermarket parts.
So I switched over to the 200gr FMJ flat nose jacketed stuff with the OEM barrel and RSA and it runs flawlessly with the same energy as the hard cast. And no leading.
"You have the right not to be killed..."
The Clash, "Know Your Rights"
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