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Picture of John3200
posted
DAK stands for "Double Action Kellerman". It refers to a type of Double Action Only trigger used in some SIGs.

Ok, if you're familiar with the traditional Double Action, Single Action trigger on the classic Sig Sauer P-Series of pistols like the P220 and P226 etc, the first trigger pull, when the hammer is down is Double Action, the trigger pull both cocks the hammer and then releases the hammer, it does double duty. Then the action of the pistol slide moving back after the shot is fired then cocks the hammer so all subsequent shots are Single Action. Hence the term Double Action/Single Action or simply DA/SA.

Now we will move on to Double Action Only. SIG, has a version of the trigger that does not cock when the slide functions, it follows the slide forward so that each shot must be fired with the full double action trigger pull. This is Double Action Only or DAO. In other words each shot from a DAO is like the first shot from a normal DA/SA.

Next came along a new design called the Double Action Kellerman or DAK. This is similar to DAO with a small difference. When you chamber a round the hammer is partially cocked, it's not all the way down like it would be in the first shot of a DA/SA or all shots like a DAO. It's partially cocked. What this does is since you are using the full length of pull of a double action trigger pull but you don't have to move the hammer as far the trigger has more leverage over the hammer so that it will feel lighter. In other words, as far as the trigger pull goes the difference between DAO and DAK the trigger pull is lighter in the DAK.

In a pistol with a DAK system there is also a second sear notch that is there to allow for second strike capability. This second sear notch also gives the perception that there are 2 trigger reset spots. To use the DAK trigger to full effect you need to release the trigger, after a shot, all the way out to the second trigger reset to get the light trigger pull of the DAK. It is possible to release the trigger out to only the first reset and it will work to pull the trigger then but the trigger pull will be heavier.

As I mentioned, the second sear notch is there for second strike capability. If the trigger is pulled and the hammer falls and for some reason the cartridge does not fire, like a hard primer or primer seated too deeply, the hammer will be all the way forward and not partially cocked. The second sear notch now will reach the hammer and allow you to pull the trigger again. Many times the cartridge will go off eventually so the gun may fire if the trigger is simply pulled again.

Single Action Only triggers are also available on classic P-Series SIGs. When a round is chambered the hammer will be cocked, there is a thumb safety that is engaged and the pistol can be carried "Cocked and Locked" like a Colt 1911.

FYI, Only the DA/SA SIG Classic P-Series guns have a Decocker. The Decocker is used, after chambering a round, to safely lower the hammer so the gun can be carried with the hammer down.

SIG has 4 different trigger systems on the classic P-Series pistols.
1. Traditional DA/SA.
2. DAO or Double Action Only
3. DAK or Double Action Kellerman
4. SAO or Single Action Only, along with a frame mounted thumb safety.

There, that is probably more than you wanted to know about SIG triggers in general and the DAK trigger specifically.
 
Posts: 1001 | Registered: September 06, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Very nicely explained; good info!


Regards From Sunny Tucson,
SigFan

"Faith isn't believing that God can; it's knowing that He will." (From a sign on a church in Nicholasville, Kentucky)
 
Posts: 1002 | Location: Tucson, Arizona | Registered: January 30, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by John3200:
In a pistol with a DAK system there is also a second sear notch that is there to allow for second strike capability. ...
As I mentioned, the second sear notch is there for second strike capability. If the trigger is pulled and the hammer falls and for some reason the cartridge does not fire, like a hard primer or primer seated too deeply, the hammer will be all the way forward and not partially cocked. The second sear notch now will reach the hammer and allow you to pull the trigger again.


That explanation is misleading at best.





First, there is no second notch that has anything to do with the sear. There are two surfaces on the hammer that the trigger bar engages to allow the hammer to be rotated to the rear and then released to strike the firing pin as the trigger pulled. One surface is a large hook on the lower part of the hammer. That hook is what the trigger bar engages when the hammer is in the normal forward position after being reset by the slide movement from striking the firing pin, and when the trigger is released to go fully forward.

The second surface is the stud that projects from the side of the hammer in front of the hook and below the pivot hole. The trigger bar engages that stud when the trigger is allowed to go forward to the first (i.e., short) reset point, and at that point the trigger can be pulled again to fire another shot without allowing it to go fully forward. The trigger bar also contacts that stud if, as mentioned, the gun is dry fired or a defective round does not fire and the hammer remains fully forward in contact with the firing pin.

My belief about the purpose of the short trigger reset feature, but which I have never seen “officially” offered, is that it shortens the trigger reset to allow somewhat faster follow up shots. A chronic complaint about the original SIG double action only (DAO) trigger was that follow up shots were like shooting traditional double action revolvers with their long trigger resets. The short reset option reduces the reset distance by about half. I and many other users of DAK pistols routinely use the short trigger reset in firing strings.

A second explanation for the short reset was supposedly given by Kellermann himself who said it was to allow the gun to be fired if the trigger was short stroked during a firing string. As I have pointed out elsewhere and won’t bother with further at this point, that explanation is odd at best.

The original post above provides a third explanation for why the DAK system has the short trigger reset option, which is supposedly to allow for a second strike capability. It is true that it does allow a second strike capability, but it hardly seems likely that that was the “intent” of the design. If there had been no desire to provide for a shorter trigger reset, but merely to reduce the trigger pull weight, that could have been accomplished with a simple modification of the original DAO hammer and mechanism. The original DAO trigger permits pulling the trigger and striking the firing pin as often as the shooter desires, just as the more common SIG DA/SA mechanism does.


Regardless of the original intent of the short reset feature, however, in practice most shooters use it to deliberately shorten the trigger reset when shooting at speed.




“A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.”
— Simon & Garfunkel, The Boxer, 1970
 
Posts: 41485 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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SIG discontinued the DAK models four years ago. It was never popular and won't be missed.
 
Posts: 766 | Registered: September 27, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Fundman:
SIG discontinued the DAK models four years ago. It was never popular and won't be missed.


I dont know if I would go that far. DAK was pushed out of the game with the rise of striker fired guns. Its much easier for most people to pick up a point and shoot striker gun that is reliable and cheap than an expensive heavy gun with a trigger that takes more effort to get good with.

DAK was very popular with law enforcement. I have three DAKs and like them... but they are also .40s and that is ancient nonsense in the eyes of the industry hipsters too.
 
Posts: 451 | Location: Ohio | Registered: April 13, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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the DAK trigger lends itself to meaningful shooting, it will be missed
 
Posts: 6 | Registered: October 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Fundman:
SIG discontinued the DAK models four years ago. It was never popular and won't be missed.


The DAK is an outstanding trigger system.
 
Posts: 4362 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Learn it, know it, live it
Picture of 1lowlife
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quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by Fundman:
SIG discontinued the DAK models four years ago. It was never popular and won't be missed.


The DAK is an outstanding trigger system.


I concur.
For a carry Sig, I preferred the DAK,,





Thanks..
 
Posts: 4078 | Location: Great State of TEXAS | Registered: July 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I carry a Sig P239 with a DAK trigger... not totally sold on the system.... it is an easier Double Action pull than the initial one on the Single Action/Double action ones.... and it is constant... I'd just as soon not have the first reset on the DAK system.
 
Posts: 1496 | Location: Greenville, SC | Registered: January 30, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by Blume9mm:
I'd just as soon not have the first reset on the DAK system.


You do know you can ignore the first reset point, don’t you?
You aren’t required to use it; it’s totally optional. Just let the trigger reset fully forward after each shot and it will be like it just wasn’t there at all.

As for the DAK trigger’s popularity, if I had limited myself to what was “popular,” I would have missed very many of the best things in life. Fortunately, I learned long ago to seek out what was best for me rather than simply being swept along by the herd.




“A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.”
— Simon & Garfunkel, The Boxer, 1970
 
Posts: 41485 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of enidpd804
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Thanks for the thread. There were some things about DAK I didn't know that I didn't know.
 
Posts: 3742 | Location: OK | Registered: August 15, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Bought a 229 DAK in 40S&W when they first came out, and liked the idea for a carry/ home defense gun. Used it as an example in teaching CCW classes, but eventually traded it for something else I thought I needed(can’t remember what). Just recently purchased a 229R, yes, in 40 S&W, in DAK, and love it enough to make it my house gun, and will carry it when I get the proper holster. Don’t let popularity or other people’s opinions influence what works for you. Maybe I am a rebel, but I admit that I like the DAK system, and I like the 40 S&W too!


A superior pilot is best defined as one who uses his superior judgment to avoid situations requiring the use of his superior skill.
 
Posts: 302 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: June 15, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I realize that "sear notch" isn't the correct terminology but it's a simpler concept to understand, especially without pictures and the reason I used that term.

One other thing, if you ever watch really fast shooters in slow motion, Jerry Miculek for example, when he's shooting a double action, on reset his finger actually goes forward enough to come off the trigger so in a trigger like the DAK there is nobody actually shooting fast that is only going far enough forward to the first reset rather than the fraction of an inch further for the second reset.


quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by John3200:
In a pistol with a DAK system there is also a second sear notch that is there to allow for second strike capability. ...
As I mentioned, the second sear notch is there for second strike capability. If the trigger is pulled and the hammer falls and for some reason the cartridge does not fire, like a hard primer or primer seated too deeply, the hammer will be all the way forward and not partially cocked. The second sear notch now will reach the hammer and allow you to pull the trigger again.


That explanation is misleading at best.





First, there is no second notch that has anything to do with the sear. There are two surfaces on the hammer that the trigger bar engages to allow the hammer to be rotated to the rear and then released to strike the firing pin as the trigger pulled. One surface is a large hook on the lower part of the hammer. That hook is what the trigger bar engages when the hammer is in the normal forward position after being reset by the slide movement from striking the firing pin, and when the trigger is released to go fully forward.

The second surface is the stud that projects from the side of the hammer in front of the hook and below the pivot hole. The trigger bar engages that stud when the trigger is allowed to go forward to the first (i.e., short) reset point, and at that point the trigger can be pulled again to fire another shot without allowing it to go fully forward. The trigger bar also contacts that stud if, as mentioned, the gun is dry fired or a defective round does not fire and the hammer remains fully forward in contact with the firing pin.

My belief about the purpose of the short trigger reset feature, but which I have never seen “officially” offered, is that it shortens the trigger reset to allow somewhat faster follow up shots. A chronic complaint about the original SIG double action only (DAO) trigger was that follow up shots were like shooting traditional double action revolvers with their long trigger resets. The short reset option reduces the reset distance by about half. I and many other users of DAK pistols routinely use the short trigger reset in firing strings.

A second explanation for the short reset was supposedly given by Kellermann himself who said it was to allow the gun to be fired if the trigger was short stroked during a firing string. As I have pointed out elsewhere and won’t bother with further at this point, that explanation is odd at best.

The original post above provides a third explanation for why the DAK system has the short trigger reset option, which is supposedly to allow for a second strike capability. It is true that it does allow a second strike capability, but it hardly seems likely that that was the “intent” of the design. If there had been no desire to provide for a shorter trigger reset, but merely to reduce the trigger pull weight, that could have been accomplished with a simple modification of the original DAO hammer and mechanism. The original DAO trigger permits pulling the trigger and striking the firing pin as often as the shooter desires, just as the more common SIG DA/SA mechanism does.


Regardless of the original intent of the short reset feature, however, in practice most shooters use it to deliberately shorten the trigger reset when shooting at speed.
 
Posts: 1001 | Registered: September 06, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I agree, I think the DAK is underrated.

I'm just a good shooter, good enough to win some local matches here and there but nothing great. We have a local match that is setup just like GSSF except you can use any brand/model of handgun or PCC. You can shoot up to 3 times each shoot, either different guns or the same gun multiple times. I took my P226R DAK in 40 just for fun and my scores were just fine with it. Good times, with good hits. Is it a race gun? No. Would I pick it over my SIG P320X5 for a competition? No. But I was able to shoot it at scores close enough to the scores of my competition guns to make me very comfortable with my P226R DAK as a defensive handgun.



quote:
Originally posted by USAFA71:
Bought a 229 DAK in 40S&W when they first came out, and liked the idea for a carry/ home defense gun. Used it as an example in teaching CCW classes, but eventually traded it for something else I thought I needed(can’t remember what). Just recently purchased a 229R, yes, in 40 S&W, in DAK, and love it enough to make it my house gun, and will carry it when I get the proper holster. Don’t let popularity or other people’s opinions influence what works for you. Maybe I am a rebel, but I admit that I like the DAK system, and I like the 40 S&W too!
 
Posts: 1001 | Registered: September 06, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by John3200:
One other thing, if you ever watch really fast shooters in slow motion, Jerry Miculek for example, when he's shooting a double action, on reset his finger actually goes forward enough to come off the trigger so in a trigger like the DAK there is nobody actually shooting fast that is only going far enough forward to the first reset rather than the fraction of an inch further for the second reset.


Some shooters slap the trigger. Many do not. Most will never rise to the level in their shooting where it doesn't matter, and most will benefit greatly by riding the trigger to the point of reset before firing again.

While a notable speedshooter advises to "slap the hell out of the trigger," it's generally not good counsel until one reaches that level. That same shooter also says "any firearm, any discipline," because he's grand master at everything. For the rest, a modicum of control goes a long way.
 
Posts: 4362 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Justice Forever
Picture of BennerP220
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When the DAK was brand new our rep brought us a new P220 DAK to try for our agency. I really liked it but we went the way of the Glock. I’ve always wanted a DAK. I think I could convert my P228 to DAK as my P220 is too old. I’d hate to mess with a good thing on my P228.
 
Posts: 2687 | Location: Southwest Indiana | Registered: December 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of ersatzknarf
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quote:
Originally posted by roym:
the DAK trigger lends itself to meaningful shooting, it will be missed


Indeed. Well said.

I absolutely love DAK. Don't give a flying fuck about what anyone says otherwise.

My first SIG was a Gen 1 P239 9mm DAK. It's a wonderful pistol and also underrated like DAK.

Like DAK so much, Robert Burke was kind enough to convert my M11-A1.

It might well be able to have a P220 converted. I would suggest asking Mr. Burke.




Frank

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Posts: 3620 | Location: too near debt-riot, mitch-e-gan | Registered: June 06, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by John3200:
One other thing, if you ever watch really fast shooters in slow motion, Jerry Miculek for example, when he's shooting a double action, on reset his finger actually goes forward enough to come off the trigger so in a trigger like the DAK there is nobody actually shooting fast that is only going far enough forward to the first reset rather than the fraction of an inch further for the second reset.


I didn’t realize that shooters like Miculek used SIGs with DAK triggers. Do you have links to videos or other sites that demonstrate how he does that with such guns?

If not, then we have no way of knowing how such shooters might adapt to a DAK trigger that permits using a shorter reset. But even if for the sake of argument you’re correct and you can know what he and other top tier shooters might do if all the guns they shot had similar trigger mechanisms, I agree with sns3guppy about this question when he points out that in general shooters who are far below Miculek’s league will control the gun better if they release the trigger only to the reset point.

And we must also ask why someone who is trying for absolutely fastest shot splits may not do that. One thing that is critical to avoid by a competitor who is shooting for maximum speed is short-stroking the trigger. If someone is skilled enough that “slapping” at the trigger doesn’t affect his aim, then ensuring that he releases the trigger fully to ensure reliable reset probably makes perfect sense. In my experience with many shooters who are far less skilled, however, controlled trigger reset helps them avoid gross aiming errors when reengaging a target between shots. That is why I do that with the guns I shoot and why I teach it as a desirable technique to my students.

In any event as I keep pointing out in these threads about the DAK trigger, using the short reset is purely optional. If someone doesn’t like it or can shoot better without using it, then he should ignore it and let the trigger reset fully.




“A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.”
— Simon & Garfunkel, The Boxer, 1970
 
Posts: 41485 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm the one that said I'm not totally sold on the DAK trigger... part of this is I've been trained and shooting SA/DA for a very long time.... the other issue might be that my first DAK pistol was a P239 in 357sig and that round alone takes some getting used to shooting.... So, my learning curve maybe more the combination than the DAK alone. I've ended up putting a DAK trigger in my 9mm P239 and that may be a little easier to 'tame'.
 
Posts: 1496 | Location: Greenville, SC | Registered: January 30, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Anyone that cares enough to take the time to train with a DAK equipped pistol can become just as fast and efficient with it as they can with any other system other than perhaps a SAO pistol.
 
Posts: 5191 | Registered: August 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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