So I have heard a few fellow shooters talk about how unsafe it is to carry a striker fired pistol in an appendix carry. I don't know if that's true... The theory is that something can get caught in the trigger guard while re-holstering. A femoral artery hit would obviously be devastating.
I have seen the guy from Military Arms Channel even talk about this and how he switched to a hammer fired pistol for this very reason when he switched to appendix carry (after what sounded like over 10 years with a Glock).
Currently I carry a Shield (w/ safety) IWB at the 3:30 position. I would like to transition to Appendix but now am looking to see if my current weapon system will work.
Does anyone know of anyone injured while carrying AIWB? Considering the use of modern kydex holsters, is this realistic?
If this is really an issue, Im looking for a good, slim, 9mm hammer fired pistol. any suggestions...
At the very least it's fertile ground for discussion
Certified Sig Armorer
If you have the thumb safety engaged, I would expect you should be safe. I sometimes appendix carry a Shield with the thumb safety engaged and feel safe. As far a re-holstering? Why would you pull it out in the first place? I would think that if there are no threats, you would have no reason to un-holster it and re-holster.
Certainly this is something to be aware of, but not concerned.
Just my humble opinion.......
|Slayer of Agapanthus|
You do not re-holster by sticking the pistol into your IWB holster. Remove the holster, insert the pistol, re-affix the holster.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye". The Little Prince, Antoine de Saint-Exupery, pilot and author, lost on mission, July 1944, Med Theatre.
I've been carrying a P239 AIWB for about a year in an El Paso Saddlery "EZ Carry" holster made for my P229R. I've got a P228, a P225A1 and a P6 that work in the holster as well. The 239's the smallest of the five. I'm really sold on the SIG MOA for appendix carry. I feel very safe carrying a live one in the pipe.
|Go ahead punk, make my day|
All IWB holsters?
Ah, no thanks.
|Go ahead punk, make my day|
I don't have stats for AIWB, but we have all heard of people shooting themselves and I'm sure it has / will happen AIWB.
I'm also sure a dedicate individual can be 'safe' but even then you can't eliminate all risk. I have carried my HKs AIWB for a short time (couple of weeks) but didn't like it / get used to it / whatever, so strong side IWB is.
I carry appendix all the time. The thought of a cocked pistol pointed at my femoral artery makes me uncomfortable. I carry a P239 or a revolver. I can put my thumb on the hammer when I reholster.
|Behold my |
I have knowledge of a number of incidents resulting in grievous injury, and at least one fatality, to shooters who carried AIWB or OWB in that zone. Without question, there are highly skilled practitioners of this style who's techniques and equipment choices mitigate the risks, for whatever benefits obtained. However, no matter the measures taken, the inescapable fact remains that the likely consequences of an ND are far greater than those experienced in strong-side or crossdraw carry. I can thus only accept AIWB with strong reservations and rigid conditions.
Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms. Now: Get some Lucas Extreme Duty Grease from Top Gun Supply and SIG Pro Shop, dammit! And remember: MOAC is coming again in 2017!
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Bruce Gray, President
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|My hypocrisy goes only so far|
I've carried that way almost exclusively (except when working around the property) for the past 9 years.
I suppose there are folks who become too comfortable, lazy, inattentive... sloppy when handeling their carry guns.
Hell, I remember reading about that SEAL that shot himself in the head fucking around.
But I can say I've heard more NDs involving OWB reholstering & foreign objects or fingers.
Though that's probably because more folks carry that way.
There's always a few that just don't respect the firearm they're holding.
.This message has been edited. Last edited by: GrumpyBiker,
I wouldn't make a sweeping conclusion that it's "unsafe" and recommend that it not be done...but there is arguably a smaller margin for error, particularly when reholstering.
I used to carry a Glock 19 appendix, but no longer do so after running one during a class carried in that fashion. The constant drawing-reholstering made me realize that if I wanted to train regularly with the G19 carry system I had, I would have to accept the increased risk involved with manipulating a striker fired gun that has no external tactile or visual indicator of what the striker is doing when I'm reholstering. I didn't want to take that level of risk. I switched to an HK P30/P30SK LEM system instead, which I feel has a larger safety margin with the hammer fired system.
The concern with striker guns carried appendix is enough that some enterprising people have developed The Gadget, which many here already know about, that replicates the feedback you get from a hammer fired gun on a Glock.
The Gadget would negate any concern about reholstering while carrying AIWB.
Call me crazy, but although it may be safe, I am uncomfortable with a SA only with the business end pointed at or near my junk.
Dunno why, but I am sorta protective of Mr Happy.
|Go ahead punk, make my day|
|addicted to trailing-throttle oversteer|
I was dead set against The Gadget when it first came to market but recently I've begun to see the wisdom in the implementation of such a device. I heard from another shop about a customer of theirs shooting himself in the thigh with his G19. He was extremely fortunate that his femoral artery wasn't nicked and I don't know all of the particulars of the incident, but his circumstance appears to make a strong case for The Gadget.
In the case of most Glocks there's a potential solution on the guns in the wild; now someone just needs to address all of the other almost countless striker designs that are available as well.
This is an excellent post, both form and content. I wanted to quote to make others read it again. I've been an AIWB user since late 2011 after taking a couple of classes from Todd Green. Todd had this phrase in regards to AIWB safety, "if you fuck up, you'll die". While this is not necessarily 100% accurate, I know of AIWB negligent discharges that resulted in minor injuries only, it is a very good philosophic starting point to AIWB.
In regards to the OP question, striker vs other risks, this is an intuitive but not necessarily quantifiable decision. I have good friends who carry or train or compete or all of the above with strikers in AIWB position. Including strikers that don't have any additional firing control mechanisms such as thumb safeties or striker control devices. They are all well trained and practiced but ultimately it is their own risk/benefit analysis. My personal analysis, as well as draw string experiments, made me switch to hammer fired guns for AIWB, not only for a holstering error mitigation but also for a drawing error mitigation. I've seen very experienced people make errors and I made some errors, fortunately less significant, myself. When it comes to safety, I want slightly more forgiving equipment than slightly less forgiving equipment. Your decision is yours only.
I do want to add that if I can't have a normal live fire practice or training out of a holster position, I don't consider that position viable. Reholstering gun and holster en bloc after each draw makes it impossible to have a meaningful live practice so I will never do it or advice doing it to others. Even though I have a good friend, a member here, whose risk mitigation process is carry appendix, practice from strong side. Again, every one draws his/ her lines the way they want to, nothing is absolute other than solid safety handling habits and some additional AIWB specific handling habits.
|E tan e epi tas|
“Never let the muzzle of a firearm cross anything you are not willing to kill or destroy”
Call me crazy but I do t want to muzzle my junk or femoral artery. Hey if I graze my ass ehh painful reminder. So I will take that level of risk vs death/dis”member”ment.
You pays your money and you takes your chances. It’s not my place to tell others how to live their lives. I am just telling you why I wouldn’t do so..... AND I CARRY HAMMER FIRED GUNS.
"Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man."
|The guy behind the guy|
I have a love hate with appendix carry.
I love it for two reasons:
1) conceal-ability. Nothing hides as well under a T-shirt as AIWB carry for me.
2) back pain. I have a bad lower back and carrying on my hip aggravates the crap out of my spine. I'm a trim guy so I have to pull my belt tight and it throws my spine out of alignment. AIWB carry doesn't result in a lopsided spine for me.
I hate it because:
1) I like my wang and femoral artery
I don't reholster a loaded weapon when carrying AIWB. I'll actually take the holster off, put the gun in, and then put the holster back on.
This limits training obviously, but I can do the whole thing rather quickly. I also make sure and take my time when I'm drawing a loaded gun to present to the target. This is the bigger limit to training.
I simply don't feel comfortable running as fast as I can in drills when drawing from the appendix. That is certainly a compromise that I wish I didn't have to make, but it's simply a reality of the situation. When I draw as fast as I can, the gun is unloaded.
I always think of the guy in the cowboy hat who shot himself in the leg while drawing. Sure, his holster was a major factor in that, but with adrenaline pumping and the pressure of a self defense situation, I can see how something similar could happen.
At the end of the day, the back pain associated with hip IWB carry makes it debilitating for me to do, so I'm stuck with appendix.
It sucks that the most comfortable and most concealable way to carry puts my junk in danger.
I do AIWB carry striker fired guns. I'd never holster a hammer gun pointed at my junk either. So for me, riding the hammer matters not. I'm more worried about a mistake on the draw stroke.
I'm confused...wait, maybe I'm not.
I have done it and no longer wish to. Ha,mer only AIWB now.
We’re in the pipe. Five by five.
|fugitive from reality|
This is such a good response I had to quote it. I lump appendex carry in with Serpa holsters. It's not that there will be an accident, it's just that the odds of having one are greatly magnified.
'I'm pretty fly for a white guy'.
To echo a couple of other negative comments on AIWB.
I wouldn't point a loaded gun at a friend. Why would I want to point one at myself? Not trying to be cute, but that's where the muzzle is pointed with an AIWB. When fully holstered, when drawing and when re-holstering. Throw in a bucket of Adrenalin before/after a gunfight or a high stress situation to boot.
To each his own, but not my cup of tea.
An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing. --Nicholas Murray Butler
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