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Posts: 6574 | Location: One step ahead of you | Registered: February 10, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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"You might remember the other day when we ran an article entitled Modular Pistols, Future or Fad. Well it seems that modular guns are in the news again as rumor has it that part of the Department of Homeland Security, Immigration & Customs Enforcement (ICE), has picked the Sig Sauer P320 as their new duty sidearm. It’s the first time to our knowledge that the United States federal government has chosen a modular personal weapon system to give their agents. As the classic 1964 folk song by Bob Dylan goes “The Times They are a Changin”. It seems that every day there is a new development on military or law enforcement agencies selecting new firearms to combat the ever evolving threats to society.

The “go to” firearm for most law enforcement agencies in the United States was one either the Glock 17/19 pistol or the Beretta model 92. Over the last few years that status quo has quickly been disrupted by Sig Sauer, Smith & Wesson and other companies looking for a piece of the pie. This shake up has left the market for law enforcement communities wide open and ripe for competition. This can only result in more competition and better deals for law enforcement budgets and officers. In this day of shrinking budgets, better deals for better gear is a win-win for taxpayers and city government. This choice is also curious because recently ICE Officials were accused of trying to stack the deck in favor of Smith & Wesson and the Military& Police Series of pistols (M&P).



Image Courtesy:weaponsman.com
The rumor mill is very active considering this choice of the Sig Sauer P320, top rumors surrounding the selection of the modular pistol include the following minor details and some changes from what use to be standard policy. The new directive to be released soon will also cover the selection and use of calibers and models of weapons to be used by off duty agents and officials.

New Weapon to be Sig Sauer P320
Sig P320 will be issued to academy students after October 2016
Only approved caliber to be 9x19mm
All .40 S&W weapons to be removed from approved weapons list
Sig MPX to be issued to all units dealing with Federal Warrants / Detail in FY 2018
ICE recently completed the contract with Sig delivering the .40 cal SIG 229R DAK. DHS (with ICE, Secret Service and Coast Guard using Sigs) was the largest customer Sig had in the world. There was widespread discontent among ICE agents with the large grips, weight, snappy recoil and heavy DAK trigger on the 229.

weaponsman.com seems to have the inside track on ICE.

“Many ICE agents prefer the Glock platform, and retain a deep distrust of an agency firearms bureaucracy, the Office of Firearms and Tactical Programs (OFTP). OFTP is perceived — rightly or not — as so biased towards SIG as to practically be in the pocket of the firm. The current issue weapon is the SIG P229 DAK, but it is broadly disliked and many agents carry one of the approved personally owned models instead, most often Glocks. ”

ICE agents have told TAG that the current and very unpopular Director of the Office of of Firearms and Tactical Programs (OFTP) is retiring soon. He may be looking to give Sig a big contract on his way out the door to get a job with Sig on the other side. Let’s hope this isn’t true, and that if it is, the ICE Office of Professional Responsibility is monitoring the situation."


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Posts: 6574 | Location: One step ahead of you | Registered: February 10, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Persian
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How quickly do people forget their history. Until Glock won the FBI contract SIG was the gun of Federal LE. So SIG winning a contract isn't unusual.


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Posts: 20052 | Location: At the wall | Registered: February 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yeah.....Sigs were the only game in town for us Feds for many years until Glocks started coming in.

I think it is good that they are moving away from the classic line, as I find it hard to justify an alloy framed hammer fired pistol for LEOs in this day and age. The switch to 9mm will greatly improve their overall agent shooting performance.
 
Posts: 466 | Registered: June 13, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
addicted to trailing-throttle oversteer
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The 320 is certainly not a bad choice by any means. But any insinuation that the choice was somehow destined to be SIG's from the start is certainly not good for the agency.
 
Posts: 7560 | Location: Drippin' wet | Registered: April 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
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You will see other DHS agencies piggyback off of this contract.

I may have some insight to this. Wink


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"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 30581 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
...and now here's Al
with the Weather.
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WHOOOOO HOOOOOO

Full line of safariland holsters for the sig 320!!!


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But then of course I might be a 13 year old girl who reads alot of gun magazines, so feel free to disregard anything I post.
 
Posts: 8918 | Location: Lake Stevens, WA | Registered: March 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Glorious SPAM!
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So will the Coasties switch from the P229R DAK also?
 
Posts: 6761 | Registered: June 13, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
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quote:
Originally posted by mbinky:
So will the Coasties switch from the P229R DAK also?


Depends. In the DHS circle, USCG is a small piece. Generally, the smaller pieces of DHS don't spend the time nor money on handgun trials. They tend to piggyback off of other contracts. I have it on good authority that another small piece of DHS has been waiting for ICE to make their decision to look at replacing their aging 229s. Some of the staff are against the swap, and just want to replace their 229s with new, with perhaps a change to 9mm. For their use, the DA/SA is what they want. And right now, their performance rate with the 229 is at an all time high, mainly because of a strong focus on technical marksmanship.

If USCG is looking to swap, I'd say the 320 will be it.


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"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 30581 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by mbinky:
So will the Coasties switch from the P229R DAK also?


Depends. In the DHS circle, USCG is a small piece. Generally, the smaller pieces of DHS don't spend the time nor money on handgun trials. They tend to piggyback off of other contracts. I have it on good authority that another small piece of DHS has been waiting for ICE to make their decision to look at replacing their aging 229s. Some of the staff are against the swap, and just want to replace their 229s with new, with perhaps a change to 9mm. For their use, the DA/SA is what they want. And right now, their performance rate with the 229 is at an all time high, mainly because of a strong focus on technical marksmanship.

If USCG is looking to swap, I'd say the 320 will be it.

FAMAS?


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Posts: 6574 | Location: One step ahead of you | Registered: February 10, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
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quote:
Originally posted by WARPIG602:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by mbinky:
So will the Coasties switch from the P229R DAK also?


Depends. In the DHS circle, USCG is a small piece. Generally, the smaller pieces of DHS don't spend the time nor money on handgun trials. They tend to piggyback off of other contracts. I have it on good authority that another small piece of DHS has been waiting for ICE to make their decision to look at replacing their aging 229s. Some of the staff are against the swap, and just want to replace their 229s with new, with perhaps a change to 9mm. For their use, the DA/SA is what they want. And right now, their performance rate with the 229 is at an all time high, mainly because of a strong focus on technical marksmanship.

If USCG is looking to swap, I'd say the 320 will be it.

FAMAS?


Yep.

And those boys (and girls) can shoot.


_______________________________________________________________________
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"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 30581 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have no clue who FAMAS is, I thought that was a rifle.

Anyway, the interesting thing to me is the choice of the MPX. The past twenty years has seen a near complete shift to the AR for LE rifles. Is the MPX in addition to ARs, or is this a shift from AR to 9mm subgun? Is there any indication as to why? If they just wanted to give Sig business, they coulda gone with the MCX. So, why the MPX? Is it just that 9mm subguns/carbines are the trendy thing this year? Or is it because of a desire for suppress-ability? Are there other factors at play here?

The story I've usually heard in the shift from MP5/9mm to the AR is that ammo in the AR tumbles and doesn't overpenetrate in typical US residential construction. Is there a shift away from that thinking?
 
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Federal Air Marshal Service


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Posts: 2864 | Location: Greenwood, Indiana, USA | Registered: September 04, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Shackelford:
I have no clue who FAMAS is, I thought that was a rifle.

Anyway, the interesting thing to me is the choice of the MPX. The past twenty years has seen a near complete shift to the AR for LE rifles. Is the MPX in addition to ARs, or is this a shift from AR to 9mm subgun? Is there any indication as to why? If they just wanted to give Sig business, they coulda gone with the MCX. So, why the MPX? Is it just that 9mm subguns/carbines are the trendy thing this year? Or is it because of a desire for suppress-ability? Are there other factors at play here?

The story I've usually heard in the shift from MP5/9mm to the AR is that ammo in the AR tumbles and doesn't overpenetrate in typical US residential construction. Is there a shift away from that thinking?


Being a Fed myself, I'm guessing that they are planning on using MPX 9mms for the sake of logistics. ICE/CBP/BP employee the largest number of commissioned officers than anyone else in the USA. Over 60k. That's a lot of guns, and ammo to keep up on. Back when they were running .40S&W sidearms, it wasn't that big of a deal to run a long gun in a different caliber(5.56). .40S&W SMGs were very difficult to control, and most designs were fairly unreliable due to the cartridge dimensions. Before the switch to .40S&W for many Feds in the early 1990s, most were using either military surplus M16s, 9mm SMGs. Sharing one caliber between handgun and long gun makes a lot of sense for large agencies.

I've used MP5s, and they are great for what they are......close range multi hit systems. Once you get beyond 25yrds it becomes progressively harder and harder to make those multi hits and that SMG becomes a semi auto carbine that hits like a pistol.....not a rifle. At 100yrds a skilled perp with an AR15 or AK will eat your lunch if you are running a subgun. Then of course there is the problem with facing suspects wearing body armor now days..... Either way, I'm not a fan of SMGs unless they are for engagements that push CQC such as indoor work, or night work.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Fuego220,
 
Posts: 466 | Registered: June 13, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Interesting read. Makes me wonder if some of the 320 might be RX's? Time will tell I guess.
 
Posts: 1159 | Location: Texas Hill Country | Registered: January 24, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by WARPIG602:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by mbinky:
So will the Coasties switch from the P229R DAK also?


Depends. In the DHS circle, USCG is a small piece. Generally, the smaller pieces of DHS don't spend the time nor money on handgun trials. They tend to piggyback off of other contracts. I have it on good authority that another small piece of DHS has been waiting for ICE to make their decision to look at replacing their aging 229s. Some of the staff are against the swap, and just want to replace their 229s with new, with perhaps a change to 9mm. For their use, the DA/SA is what they want. And right now, their performance rate with the 229 is at an all time high, mainly because of a strong focus on technical marksmanship.

If USCG is looking to swap, I'd say the 320 will be it.

FAMAS?


Yep.

And those boys (and girls) can shoot.


I dont recall the article but I thought I saw during selection or training they shoot like 10k rounds a month...each, and to pass they had to be shooting 95+%


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Posts: 6574 | Location: One step ahead of you | Registered: February 10, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The FAMS are a great bunch of people and truly "the quiet professionals." For deep concealment carry I can see a da/sa as opposed to a striker fired. Switching to 9mm just makes sense on several levels.


DPR
 
Posts: 315 | Registered: March 10, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of 3/4Flap
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quote:
Originally posted by Fuego220:
quote:
Originally posted by Shackelford:
I have no clue who FAMAS is, I thought that was a rifle.

Anyway, the interesting thing to me is the choice of the MPX. The past twenty years has seen a near complete shift to the AR for LE rifles. Is the MPX in addition to ARs, or is this a shift from AR to 9mm subgun? Is there any indication as to why? If they just wanted to give Sig business, they coulda gone with the MCX. So, why the MPX? Is it just that 9mm subguns/carbines are the trendy thing this year? Or is it because of a desire for suppress-ability? Are there other factors at play here?

The story I've usually heard in the shift from MP5/9mm to the AR is that ammo in the AR tumbles and doesn't overpenetrate in typical US residential construction. Is there a shift away from that thinking?


Being a Fed myself, I'm guessing that they are planning on using MPX 9mms for the sake of logistics. ICE/CBP/BP employee the largest number of commissioned officers than anyone else in the USA. Over 60k. That's a lot of guns, and ammo to keep up on. Back when they were running .40S&W sidearms, it wasn't that big of a deal to run a long gun in a different caliber(5.56). .40S&W SMGs were very difficult to control, and most designs were fairly unreliable due to the cartridge dimensions. Before the switch to .40S&W for many Feds in the early 1990s, most were using either military surplus M16s, 9mm SMGs. Sharing one caliber between handgun and long gun makes a lot of sense for large agencies.

I've used MP5s, and they are great for what they are......close range multi hit systems. Once you get beyond 25yrds it becomes progressively harder and harder to make those multi hits and that SMG becomes a semi auto carbine that hits like a pistol.....not a rifle. At 100yrds a skilled perp with an AR15 or AK will eat your lunch if you are running a subgun. Then of course there is the problem with facing suspects wearing body armor now days..... Either way, I'm not a fan of SMGs unless they are for engagements that push CQC such as indoor work, or night work.


I'm really interested in why exactly the interest in a 9mm carbine, too. As you say, the ballistics of the 9mm fall apart at fairly short range.

I suspect the 5.56 carbines will not be done away with but rather some officers might get 9mm carbines? I cannot imagine a wholesale switch away from 5.56 for 9mm in longarms! Such a move would be just plain stupid.


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Posts: 4780 | Location: Idaho, USA | Registered: May 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It is good to hear that ICE is going to the Sig P320, any thought that their was a bias should look at the FBI and the rest of the DOJ agencies that also adopted the glock platform. For the FBI to select a firearm that was not even produced yet should be suspect as favoring a certain platfor. The excuse of the cost of holsters having to be switched out is pretty weak. I work in one of those agencies and always though it was funny that even after the initial five year contract that the bureau signed back in 2000 that you would see a recompetition in the handgun platform, not so with the pistols priced around $350.00 that it was hard to beat. I ran a Sig P320 Compact through my agency's qual corse and was pretty inpressed with the low recoil and the quick ease of feeling with the grip. the only thing to get used to is the higher bore axis meaning after carrying a Glock for 16 years it was getting used to the new grip angle and hieght of the slide. the bore axis had no effect on the accuracy of the Sig which was excellent. I think the bureau should rethink its chice in the Glock Gen5. Having worked a short-time with ICE-FPS, ICE does do a thorough testing of a proposed pistol platform prior to selection. Just my two cents.
 
Posts: 5 | Location: Rockville, MD | Registered: December 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by 3/4Flap:
I cannot imagine a wholesale switch away from 5.56 for 9mm in longarms! Such a move would be just plain stupid.


Indeed.

A properly trained and experienced shooter can get multiple hits with a rifle chambered for 5.56mm just as fast on a practical level as with a 9mm—and multiple hits are less likely to be required to neutralize a hostile threat because the former’s wounding effects are so much greater.

Except as a range toy the whole idea of a long gun chambered for a short gun cartridge is inane, and we can only wonder what the fascination with the notion is.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
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