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| Only dead fish go with the flow  |
I feel the same way. I recently bought an early 5906 (square trigger guard) in great condition for $350. The gun is extremely well made. If S&W made that gun today, they would have to sell above $1,000. It just wouldn't sell well and not just because of the price. It defies the current trend in the market. | |||
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| addicted to trailing-throttle oversteer |
Furthermore, I doubt you would see any price relief out of S&W over the current going rate for a used one. They're more expensive to build and S&W's financial people are not operating in a vacuum; they watch the marketplace just like we do. If anything, they'd probably price any new production higher and justify the decision based on it being "new" rather than "used". So aside from your possible ability to buy a new production example of perhaps questionable quality control (an all too common theme with S&W these days), what has really been gained by such an exercise? Especially when M&Ps will continue to rule S&W's sales and dominate their resources and attention, like lightweight polymer pistols do for nearly all manufacturers who venture into the realm of gelatinous goop. | |||
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| 7.62mm Crusader |
Indeed. The 4506 as well. In my estimation, some things are worth doing. Those full size guns should have been kept on line and modernized. Not just the Performance Center either. They should have been improved upon every year, same as the M&P guns. I dont completely dislike the M&P. Some of the full size guns do appeal to me and, there used to be a medium size carry gun in .357 Sig I gave my nod too. But, looking at their line of all M&P, most of those little turds could be flushed and time, money concentrated on other models. When a manufacturer attends the party by competing with others, essentially copying the competition, all poly gun line, they better make a serious improvment. If Glock makes all poly, we gotta make all poly. It certainly takes away from S&Ws ability, which they have, to offer a diverse line of product. And it closes the door on some customers. | |||
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Member |
Third Gen's rule! The 4506 is one of the best looking .45's ever, like the damned Hammer of Thor. It's too big, too heavy and unwieldy, but man is it impressive when ya' shoot it; there's almost no recoil at all due to its massive nature. You can really get 'yer Season 5 Sonny Crockett on with this thing...  ________________________________________ "Just A Wild Eyed Texan On a Manhunt For The World's Most Perfect Chili Dog...." | |||
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Member |
The cost of an all-metal pistol stems mostly from the machining required. With CNC machines becoming widely available and cheaper, it is possible that the cost of a 3rd Gen frame might actually be less now than a couple of years ago. Half of the pistol is the slide, and that is the same cost on a plastic or an all-metal pistol. But it is hard to beat the cost of an injected molded plastic frame. Still, the reason there are so many variants of the various pistol lines, and so many companies making 1911's, is that CNC machining is getting cheaper -- and you can change patterns by changing the software. A couple of years ago I saw an advertisement for a company (it may have been Robar) that was making metal frames for Glocks - all of the regular Glock parts would fit this metal frame, and the customer could move his parts over from an existing Glock. Are they still in business? Did that work okay? I suspect there would be problems with the precision fit of roll pins and such in the metal frame, even though they might work in a plastic frame. The gun market is supposedly going through some changes, as demand for "entry level" guns for the surge of buyers drops off and customers are becoming more discerning. Hence the "gun of the month" movement to try to cater to changing tastes. In this environment, could S&W make an economically viable 3rd Gen pistol? Beretta, CZ, and Sig-Sauer make money making all-metal pistols... Production of a couple of thousand S&W Model 3913 (single stack) pistols would be a good test run. S&W might be able to re-design the 3913 to make it a bit simpler in terms of parts and assembly. (Making the safety/decocker on one side only, but moveable from side to side, would make the 3913 even narrower). I have two 3rd Gen pistols (5906 and 915) and they are on-par with Sig-Sauers in quality but lack the elegant simplicity of the Classic P-Series. It's a separate issue, but the DA/SA aspect is one of the things that makes the all-metal 3rd Gen pistols good shooters; DA/SA is enjoying somewhat of a comeback, too. I'd buy a 3913-A1 -- if I knew it would be supported by the company for another 20 years! | |||
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| The Constable |
We fielded 5903's for nine or maybe ten years. They were getting shop worn towards the end, but ALL of them worked just fine. One of the only real failures I was aware of was one pistol that had a cracked frame. And it was still functioning. Apparently the CASE of Israeli surplus 9mm shot out of it was subgun ammo, so fairly hot. Otherwise the other 200+ soldiered on and are probably STILL doing so. I changed the recoil spring in mine, that was it. Still have it as a bed stand gun. | |||
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| Big Stack |
Smith knows both the costs and the market better than we do. Apparently (Based on their actions) they think they can make more money improving and expanding their poly gun lines. Everything we've heard externally backs this up. All metal guns are rapidly becoming a niche, enthusiasts product. What demand for them there is mostly concentrates in the 1911 abd revolver market. Even SIG is moving more in the direction of poly guns, with the P320.
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| 7.62mm Crusader |
Often I wonder why, if they cant make profit from a certain line, why not sell the design and let another manufacturer step into the field ? I spent some time this evening looking over various 4506s and 1006s. I wish I could have been the lucky dawg who got Mustang-Papas big frame. That was a sweet example of a great gun. | |||
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| Member |
Polymer double stack pistols allow a lot of rounds in a small grip. Metal frame pistols have significantly larger grips for the round capacity. Sig has minimized that with some of their slimmer grips, but Beretta, S&W, and CZ can be too big with too long a trigger reach. All-metal single stacks are still sized reasonably. The only all metal double stack I have now is a P226 Legion SAO, and the slim G10 grip with no de-cocker hump make a huge difference compared to a regular P226. | |||
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| Member |
The last S&W metal frame service guns produced were the 4566’s made for the WV state Police and the 5946’s made for the RCMP and NYPD. Now that the 5946 is out of production, NYPD has replaced it on their authorized list with the Gen 4 Glock 17. My understanding is S&W no longer sells parts for the 3rd Gen and earlier guns. They kept a “working stock” for repairs and sold the rest to Numrich / Gun Parts Corp. If they have the necessary parts they will still fix them, if they don’t have the necessary parts you are out of luck. Same with the older S&W revolvers. S&W is not alone in this. Ruger no longer supports / repairs any of their “six” series revolvers such as the Security Six. If you break one, they will take it and give you a credit / discount towards a GP 100. Same with some of the older P series autos like the P89. I’m guessing this is a business decision - it is likely just cheaper to give you anew gun at cost than to stock parts for old guns. | |||
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| Big Stack |
AFAIK, unless a gun is covered by active patents, it can be legally copied. Look at the 1911 an AR markets. There are classic SIG copies, Walther P99 copies, etc.. If you think you can make money selling new copies of third generation Smith, get yourself a machine shop, reverse engineer them, and start cranking them out.
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| Bought a 239 magazine for $10, got banned for free. |
Glad I kept my 5906 and 6906 both with square trigger guards. Along with my old school Sigs. | |||
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Member |
My old Department transitioned from S&W M66 revolvers to M659 first gen 9mm's and finally to third gen M5906 9's. We had a very good run but they were wearing out. The small copper spring things in the frame were breaking ears off. Didn't seen to affect the reliability though. It was just time for a total replacement which we did every ten years as a matter of policy. They were great pistols but they were heavy to lug arounf on the belt for 12 hours a day. The Glock 21's we replaced them with were much more comfortable on the belt. La Dolce Vita | |||
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| Member |
I always liked the 6906 for some reason. It had a great trigger and concealed nicely. It is a shame they don't make certain models anymore. | |||
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| Just because you can, doesn't mean you should |
I suspect that in ten years you will see very few guns from any large manufacturer that are of all metal construction. Glock, being one of the few plastic only manufacturers, was able to kept their prices up so the differential was small and metal guns could be sold to a larger market. Now that there are lots of mainstream manufacturers making plastic at much lower production cost, the price wars have pulled the prices down much lower. I suspect that Glock will have to lower their prices to compete at some point and then the differential will be even greater making metal guns prices even less competitive. Right now you can buy a brand new quality plastic gun for below, sometimes well below, the price of a used metal Sig or other quality gun. ___________________________ Avoid buying ChiCom/CCP products whenever possible. | |||
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| Fuimus |
S&W evolved with technology. Why build a metal gun when you can build a polymer gun that does the same thing, if not better? | |||
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Fighting the good fight |
The 2nd and 3rd Gen 69-series guns were the Glock 19 of their time. Compact size, decent capacity, and easy to shoot well. Great all-around carry guns. The 39xx models were also great carry guns, with similar dimensions, but a thinner grip due its single stack magazine. I carried a 3913 off duty up until 2010 or so, when I switched to polymer. | |||
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| The Whack-Job Whisperer  |
The Chiefs Special 9mm CS9 is another model they should still be making. They made it for LE/Gov sales up until around 2010. Every customer in our shop, looking for a sub compact 9mm carry gun, who sees and handles my CS9 wants one. Not everyone wants striker fired plastic guns. Regards 18DAI 7+1 Rounds of hope and change | |||
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| When you fall, I will be there to catch you -With love, the floor |
No. We had a few with cracked frame rails. Out of luck. I would not hold my breath waiting for them to pay shipping both ways. Wheen the line ended, the MSRP was almost a thousand. the market for them is minimal. I still have a few from my working days. As someone pointed out, they were boat anchors and tough to haul around. The alloy frames were somewhat better. But for agencies concerned about the bottom line, they will never regain popularity. | |||
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| Member |
I will buy the next 5906 that I see at a good price. And it will watch Reservoir Dogs with me. I have a buddy who bought a 3904 25+ years ago and never bought another semi auto because that one just fits him perfectly. | |||
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