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list of guns that experience *sight dip*; deal with it, fix it or dump it? Login/Join 
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Picture of gentleone
posted
I've had a number of handguns over the years that experience what I call "sight dip"--as the slide moves forward and back into battery after the shot, the front of the gun dips lower and then bounces back up so that sights are again aligned.

I have disliked this phenomena and have sold every firearm that his done this. Guns that have done this to me include:

G30sf
G34
P320 (full size)
STI Guardian (9mm)
Sig Pro 2009


Every gun that i've experienced this with I have sold. I cannot tolerate it, as I seems to slow down follow-up shots.

That is why I have learned to avoid guns that are front heavy or or over-sprung.

Does this phenomena bother others?

What guns have you experience this with?

Subjective feelings aside, does this phenomena objectively negatively impact shooting performance?
 
Posts: 482 | Location: SE Houston, TX | Registered: June 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Wouldn’t physics dictate the front of the slide to go up since the grip is below the slide and your hand acts as a fulcrum? I would guess for some reason you push the front of the slide down when you are firing those weapons
 
Posts: 585 | Location: The realm of Texas | Registered: February 06, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of huskerlrrp
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quote:
Originally posted by gentleone:
I've had a number of handguns over the years that experience what I call "sight dip"--as the slide moves forward and back into battery after the shot, the front of the gun dips lower and then bounces back up so that sights are again aligned.

I have disliked this phenomena and have sold every firearm that his done this. Guns that have done this to me include:

G30sf
G34
P320 (full size)
STI Guardian (9mm)
Sig Pro 2009


Every gun that i've experienced this with I have sold. I cannot tolerate it, as I seems to slow down follow-up shots.

That is why I have learned to avoid guns that are front heavy or or over-sprung.

Does this phenomena bother others?

What guns have you experience this with?

Subjective feelings aside, does this phenomena objectively negatively impact shooting performance?

I've changed my recoil springs to match my load so it's generally "neutral". Have you ever tried this?
Basically, do a "Bill Drill" at 7 yards....six shots as fast as you can in a 8" circle without missing. If the group moves up, then use a heavier rate recoil spring. If the group moves down (dips) then decrease the recoil spring (less spring rate). A lot of places sell "tuner" kits to get it right.


 
Posts: 1638 | Location: North Cackalacky | Registered: September 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of gentleone
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Regarding the G34 and p320, i had installed lower force recoil springs to reduce the sight dip phenomena. the lower power springs helped , but i rid myself of the pistols anyway.
 
Posts: 482 | Location: SE Houston, TX | Registered: June 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yeah, funny how “high bore axis” pistols can have muzzle dip. It’s so weird, almost like bore axis doesn’t actually matter.

Anyway, a good number of competitive shooters will play with recoil spring rates to find the right place where recoil, timing, and muzzle dip/rise are balanced. I would agree that most factory guns are intentionally over sprung to ensure against failures and maybe premature wear.

Whether you modify spring rates, live with it as is, or dump it if it doesn’t suit you is all up to you. There is a lot to be said for predictable rise and fall during recoil.


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Posts: 1631 | Registered: June 25, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Gracie Allen is my
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I know you're talking about pistols with very different grips, but could that have something to do with the way the back of the grip fits into the base of your hand? I've never had the problem with a 320 or (in my case) a 9mm 2022.
 
Posts: 23419 | Location: Deep in the heart of the brush country, and closing on that #&*%!?! roadrunner. Really. | Registered: February 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of 4MUL8R
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Do you mean spring load or spring rate? I have never heard of tuning with rate, but it makes technical sense.


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Posts: 3273 | Location: Commonwealth of Virginia | Registered: January 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
Picture of ensigmatic
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Ha! I don't shoot fast enough or well enough for that to be a problem Smile




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
The dominant media is no more "mainstream" than leftists are liberals.
 
Posts: 16251 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
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quote:
Originally posted by ensigmatic:
Ha! I don't shoot fast enough or well enough for that to be a problem Smile


Yeah, I was kinda thinking the same thing. File this one under “problems good shooters have.” Big Grin
 
Posts: 10514 | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Resident Rogue and Blackguard
Picture of FPNunes
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quote:
Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
quote:
Originally posted by ensigmatic:
Ha! I don't shoot fast enough or well enough for that to be a problem Smile


Yeah, I was kinda thinking the same thing. File this one under “problems good shooters have.” Big Grin


Indeed! When I can out shoot Robbie Leatham then I'll worry about it. Till then my old, slow ass is just happy to still be able to follow the front sight. Wink


Save the whales. Redeem them for valuable prizes...
 
Posts: 1442 | Location: Missing New England everyday | Registered: March 14, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
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quote:
Originally posted by mhughes:
Wouldn’t physics dictate the front of the slide to go up since the grip is below the slide and your hand acts as a fulcrum? I would guess for some reason you push the front of the slide down when you are firing those weapons


No, not at all what he is speaking of. He is speaking of the mechanical act of the gun being oversprung from the factory. Most manufacturers use the same recoil spring for both 9mm and .40 caliber. So, in the 9mm the gun returns to battery upon cycling more violently due to the spring being too heavy for the recoil impulse. This return causes the muzzle to dip below the line of sight, causing the shooter to have to bring the front sight back up into the line of sight to correct for the gun being oversprung.

It is actually pretty common and it doesn't bother me due to the fact if I like the gun, I just adjust the recoil spring accordingly

It doesn't matter how you hold the gun as long as you are doing it correctly. That is somewhat of a trick statement in the fact that "correctly" means you do not put any false inputs into the gun to "control" the recoil. That is bad from any perspective. The simple answer is to go with a lighter recoil spring.


_______________________________________________________________________
www.opspectraining.com

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 33070 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Wait, what?
Picture of gearhounds
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I shoot a solid thumbs forward grip pretty much all the time and experience very little dip or flip at any speed. I know it’s not for everyone but it’s made all the difference for me, especially with close to mid range rapid follow up shots. Works just as well with my P220 or 226 .40.

P320 Compact, 9mm, 15’
https://vimeo.com/338361262




"In America, there is no such thing as poor people, there are lazy people."- Edmond's dad
 
Posts: 10870 | Location: Martinsburg WV | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I carried a Berretta back in the 90's, for a few years. I always felt like I could feel the slide hammer back and hammer forward. Maybe just due to the light weight of the frame, or the way the weight of the slide is all at the back. I don't know. I don't feel that in most Glocks, and they're light.

I noticed some dip with the P320F, but just drove the front sight. I decided to try a lighter spring and went with the Grayguns fat guide rod and a fifteen pound spring. I played with 11-15 lbs, and ended up presently using a 14 lb ISMI 1911 spring, which seems to work fine, and am using a lighter load to match it.

I didn't go with the spring and rod arrangement to compensate for "dip," however. I was having some issues with cycling with the load, and felt that the 18 lb spring might be the issue; reducing the spring slightly has made for much better functioning right now, with this load.
 
Posts: 4012 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Can't comment on the actual phenomenon as even if it happens to me I don't notice it. And for sure it doesn't affect my shooting. But taking the G34 as an example a gun shot by about a zillion people winning a semi-zillion competitions, it can't be a real impediment to successful results.
Same for me on a sigpro. doesn't happen. I don't yet go fast on a 320 (I'm trying on a bet with jljones) but lots of people do so guessing it doesn't bother them either.
So I think you are in the lost souls camp. learn to deal with it and move on.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 7899 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of gentleone
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I’m guessing they tuned the recoil springs to match the loads they shoot. I tuned the recoil springs on the G34 and P320 (full size). Testing did reveal i noticeable reduction in muzzle di[p]. But alas, I sold those pistols.
 
Posts: 482 | Location: SE Houston, TX | Registered: June 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I don't know what people who win at a national level do. But those who win at my local level shoot the G34 in its factory configuration. FWIW>


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 7899 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
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quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
I don't know what people who win at a national level do. But those who win at my local level shoot the G34 in its factory configuration. FWIW>


This is my experience as well. But, to be fair, most shoot factory ammunition as well, and attempt to take no advantage from handloading.


_______________________________________________________________________
www.opspectraining.com

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 33070 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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