quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog7972:

quote:

Originally posted by soggy_spinout:
Nice read; a big thanks for putting it all together.

I'm still not buying that the Beretta is more reliable, not with that open slide of theirs. Out in the real, rough world I think I'd rather have far less openings in the slide of my pistol than to have one huge one that's just begging for all sorts of crap to find its way into. Which is another reason why I don't get all of these crazy slides with their lightening cuts and such for carry guns.

That's what we said when the Beretta first came out. That that huge hole in the slide would cause malfunctions, allow dirt inside etc. But in reality none of that happened. I finally purchased one and it was probably the most reliable pistol I ever owned. I shot thousands of rounds through that gun and never had one single malfunction.

I'm not saying that a open slide Beretta can't be reliable; all of mine have not faltered when I've had them out to the range. But I also believe that its large slide opening makes them more vulnerable. Decades ago it happened with Dad's M1934 when he slipped and fell into a mud hole on my Grandpa's farm. That memory (it was a pretty funny sight to see, btw) has stuck with me. I wouldn't otherwise carry any of my big fat 92s, but the slide opening gives me even more reason not to want to haul a gun like that around in the backwoods.

I've got 6 berettas. Never had a jam with any of them in training or competition. I can see where slots might cause issues but a wide open barrel gets crud out as easy as in.

So how’d your P2K work out for you?

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
So how’d your P2K work out for you?

Should be here tomorrow. Seller dragged his feet for a couple of days.

cslinger - thanks for the write up. Nice to see the comparisons and your thoughts. As a Sig fan (yes, I admit it), I do wish you had an SP2022 in your comparison. I think that is the one DA/SA Sig that directly compares to the Glock in terms of size/capacity/polymer frame criteria. Again, I am biased as that is the first gun I ever purchased. And would probably be the last I let go.

I don’t own a SIGPRO but have shot them. My take is they feel bulky but beyond that they have amazing triggers, better in my exp. then the classic SIGs. I prefer the take down procedure of the classic SIGs but beyond that the SIGPROs are awesome and in some ways better then the classics. I think they never got the respect they deserve for 2 reasons.

1- At the time a polymer SIG was pretty much blasphemy.
2- It was a hammer fired DA/SA polymer pistol just as striker fired was REALLY gaining traction.

Those two things are what relegated the SIGPRO to the proverbial bargain bin, because the pistol itself is really first rate.

In comparison to the Glock 19 my biggest beef is similar to the 229/228. It feels bigger than it is.

These are 2x as much as they should be but I would suggest you buy a couple as they are still fairly inexpensive.

If you wait, trust me, you won’t find them and you will want them.

https://www.hkparts.net/shop/p...ine+Flat+Floor+Plate

Thanks cslinger, Good Read.

Thanks for the comparison. I hate the Glock line, especially the 19...ugly and boring to shoot.

But I do carry a Glock 33 or 19 because after literally shooting every competitor I can't find a better pistol for the job.

I love my Sigs and CZs but carry my Glocks.

Excellent post. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. At one point in time I was had a da/sa preference and ended up with the 229 mainly due to it’s trigger out of the box, of course I didn’t consider all the ones you have. That said, I have yet to find a da/sa better than the sig out of the box, specifically the ones with the srt, but again for my liking, ymmv.

While it’s subjective, I would be curious to hear your comments on the da/sa triggers. For me at least, that tends to be a big factor on what my preference would be, especially for da/sa guns. Not asking you to review each one in detail(unless you want), maybe just a quick rank in your opinion. I guess in the end you can always tune it to your liking but I tend to be prefer out of the box before I have to tinker with the trigger mechanism.

quote:

While it’s subjective, I would be curious to hear your comments on the da/sa triggers.

I am really not a nuanced enough shooter to really be the person to ask. I mean I can tell you a trigger is really good or really bad but the in between where most guns fall not so much.

I will give it a try.

HK triggers run the gamut from good (match guns) to HORRIBLE my HK45C double action pull. The rest of them fall in that middle ground.

The P2000 and P30 - in DA/SA are fine. They are the worst of this bunch but fine. The DA is heavy but smooth enough and smooths out with use and single action is a little "squishy" as in you get to the wall and there is some flex/give in the trigger that doesn't really give you that clean glass rod break feeling. Resets are fairly long but that has never been an issue with me and honestly once reset gets really short I really don't like it all that much.

The Beretta - Beretta's have nice triggers. They feel good, break nicely, reset ok and are just fairly pleasant DA/SA triggers out of the box.

The SIG - SIG's have smooth DA triggers and decent breaks. SIG probably has the best DA/SA out of the box. Smooth/Nice weight/nice break. I wouldn't say they are head and shoulders above the Beretta's but I would say they are tad better.

The Walther P99as - Best tactical tupperware trigger IMO. The P99 has a legit good trigger. Smooth, crisp break, short reset its a fantastic trigger. The best of this bunch no doubt.

The CZ - CZ's get crap for their triggers quite a bit on the gun boards but honestly I don't find them all that objectionable. Mine have really nice crisp breaks and although heavy generally smooth out nicely. The curved trigger can bug some folks but doesn't bother me.

The Glock - Glock triggers are what they are. light take up, spongyish break, short reset. They are perfect middle of the road striker trigger.

The point is all of these are designed for defensive/military/law enforcement use. Having a target trigger isn't really the name of the game here, have reliable ignition and a margin of safety is and all of these easily work for the purpose they were designed for.

Again, I am not a nuanced shooter. I am just an idjit with a hobby so take everything I say with a grain of salt and rest assured when you press that lever thingy there will be boom and a hole generally where you want one.

Thanks for the response. That’s pretty much what I’ve experienced on most manufactures you’ve discussed. Haven’t shot all the specific variants that you have but pretty close to what my impressions were. Again, nice write up.

I keep saying we live in good times as gun enthusiasts. You gave a pretty good representation of the better da/sa’s that are available. We haven’t even touched on all the newer sf guns and 1911’s that are around.

quote:

Originally posted by ruger357:

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
So how’d your P2K work out for you?

Should be here tomorrow. Seller dragged his feet for a couple of days.

Sovereign Guns sent the wrong gun! They sent a LEM trigger and I ordered a da/sa gun.

Just my own observation regarding LEM. It feels GREAT dry firing it, but somehow live fire it bugs the hell out of me. Something about how the hammer moves on reset or something to that effect. It’s been a long time since I have shot an LEM model.

Bidding on another since the last one was messed up.

quote:

Originally posted by soggy_spinout:

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog7972:

quote:

Originally posted by soggy_spinout:
Nice read; a big thanks for putting it all together.

I'm still not buying that the Beretta is more reliable, not with that open slide of theirs. Out in the real, rough world I think I'd rather have far less openings in the slide of my pistol than to have one huge one that's just begging for all sorts of crap to find its way into. Which is another reason why I don't get all of these crazy slides with their lightening cuts and such for carry guns.

p

That's what we said when the Beretta first came out. That that huge hole in the slide would cause malfunctions, allow dirt inside etc. But in reality none of that happened. I finally purchased one and it was probably the most reliable pistol I ever owned. I shot thousands of rounds through that gun and never had one single malfunction.

I'm not saying that a open slide Beretta can't be reliable; all of mine have not faltered when I've had them out to the range. But I also believe that its large slide opening makes them more vulnerable. Decades ago it happened with Dad's M1934 when he slipped and fell into a mud hole on my Grandpa's farm. That memory (it was a pretty funny sight to see, btw) has stuck with me. I wouldn't otherwise carry any of my big fat 92s, but the slide opening gives me even more reason not to want to haul a gun like that around in the backwoods.

The characteristic of the beretta 92 that allows an advantage in reliability over most other pistols is based in the fact that the barrel doesn’t tilt. Since the 92 doesn’t use a tilting barrel lockup, but rather recoils straight back, it allowed the designers to put the ejector and extractor opposite each other on the breechface.

With a tilt barrel they cannot be arranged that way since the extractor has to be in a position to grab the cartridge and hold it as it moves downward during extraction, and the ejector needs to go lower to throw the cartridge upward when it hits the ejector. It makes the system sensitive to extractor tension and cannot be done with an extractor that holds the casing tightly to the breechface (the cartridge is necessarily a little cockeyed against the Breechface due to the tilt of the barrel.

On a fixed barrel or straight back recoiling barrel like a 92, the extractor doesn’t need to be on the side and can be placed where it will work best. There is a reason every automatic rifle and machine gun design puts the ejector and extractor 180 degrees away from each other on the breechface, it just works better.

The open slide myth doesn’t have much to do with the reliability of the 92

Skull and Bones is Yale, you doofus.

quote:

Skull and Bones is Yale, you doofus.

That’s only what they want the plebes to think. But you keep believing that.

Won a bid for a da/sa p2000. Hopefully it will be here Thursday.

quote:

Originally posted by JBP55:
Thanks cslinger, Good Read.

Yes, fun read too. Thanks cslinger

I carry a Glock 19 or a Sig P320C, I prefer the 19 during summer.