quote:

Originally posted by TestPilot:
No, I don't looks is a factor when you select a self defense technique. It was not intended as a personal "jab" at you.

I didn't really think it was; rather, I thought it might be the general suggestion of "coolness" or the like as a consideration in peoples' shooting habits. It seems that was pretty much what you were getting at, and I agree that unfortunately it is many times the case. Suffice to say, it's not with me.

"Slap" is just a term you hear used; it certainly isn't accurate, since the base of the mag is never literally slapped. A better description would be a "palm-heel drive", with the heel never breaking contact with the magazine.

Anyway...

quote:

Can you describe exactly how the fail to feed on the P250 occured? Did the round get hung on the feed ramp or did it just not push any round out of the chamber at all? More details please.

Hung up on the ramp, mostly, though there were the few times when the slide snapped forward on its own without chambering a round at all.

It was very discouraging. Working the action quickly would at least ensure there was a round chambered after a reload, even with the slide issue. However, failures to feed while shooting are really troubling, specifically in a carry gun.

I know with Glocks its common to have the slide release when "driving" the magazine in.
I always assumed it was a feature that help to reload and get back on target faster.

I had the slide close loading three different Glocks at the range. The old 220 would do the same thing but you had to put the mag in really hard.

With my 250 I have the gun pointing down range when loading, as is safe for all guns since there is a chance of the gun firing.

I too expect the slide to close when the mag is inserted. Its not so much a malfunction as it is a law of physics.

quote:

Originally posted by motor:
I too expect the slide to close when the mag is inserted. Its not so much a malfunction as it is a law of physics.

I've never had a slide close on me just from inserting the magazine. Is this really common?

Chris

quote:

Originally posted by cens:

quote:

Originally posted by motor:
I too expect the slide to close when the mag is inserted. Its not so much a malfunction as it is a law of physics.

I've never had a slide close on me just from inserting the magazine. Is this really common?

Chris

My AK-47 does it, think my M1A has once in a while, haven't shot it much.

quote:

Originally posted by EMitch:
...

My AK-47 does it, think my M1A has once in a while, haven't shot it much.

It does happen often with many different pistols of different make with varying degrees.

However, with an AK-47, it's a different matter because AK-47 does not have a bolt catch to begin with.

quote:

Originally posted by motor:
I had the slide close loading three different Glocks at the range. The old 220 would do the same thing but you had to put the mag in really hard.

With my 250 I have the gun pointing down range when loading, as is safe for all guns since there is a chance of the gun firing.

I too expect the slide to close when the mag is inserted. Its not so much a malfunction as it is a law of physics.

I'm sorry, but the slide on a handgun closing upon magazine insertion is in no way a "law of physics". If it is, my Beretta 96 (just for example) defies the fundamental rules of the universe on a regular basis.

I'm sure other handguns do have this issue, but it IS an issue--not a normal aspect of operation. Some Glocks may experience it, but my Glock 26 never does, nor has any Glock I've rented. With every handgun I've ever operated (other than the P250 on Friday), the slide has remained in lock during reloads until I manually released it. Strangely, no firearms instructors I've worked with have ever expressed astonishment over this violation of physics! Yet I imagine if I ejected a mag and, instead of falling to the earth below, it soared up into the sky never to be seen again, they'd have said something.

With specific regard to MY personal P250 (because I realize that some are performing flawlessly): if the slide self-closing always fully chambered a round, I could at least consider it reliable for carry. However, as posted before, it repeatedly hung a round on the feed ramp or just left me with an empty chamber. That's not okay for self-defense purposes. I'm shooting it again this week to see what another 2-3 hundred rounds brings about. Unless the issue magically disappears, it's going back to Sig for some work.

The Physics of Mag Loading, as I understand it.
A force applied to the Grip transfers to the slide. The slide then moves away from the grip/trigger control unit. Hopefully the worst that happens is the round is chambered and the gun is ready to fire.



Check out the fine drawing I composed using PhotoBucket.

quote:

Originally posted by motor:
The Physics of Mag Loading, as I understand it.
A force applied to the Grip transfers to the slide. The slide then moves away from the grip/trigger control unit. Hopefully the worst that happens is the round is chambered and the gun is ready to fire.

That is indeed a spectacular illustration! Your artistic talents exceed even your grasp of the sciences.

(I kid, but seriously, "law of physics"? That's like if I cheated on my wife and tried to explain it away as a "biological necessity".)

To me, a reliable firearm will not have this dubious "feature". Again, I'm not saying the P250 as a model is unreliable. I'm saying my personal P250 is acting in a way that none of my other firearms (nor any others I've shot) have acted--and it led to several unquestionable concerns, mainly semi-fed rounds or unfed rounds.

nimue, thanks for your thoughtful, informative posts! Please keep us posted if your next range session produces any continued issues, or if "break in" is solving them?

Are there any plans for the P250 to be Calif. Compliant.? Thanks for any information you can give.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by nimue144:

quote:

Originally posted by motor:
The Physics of Mag Loading, as I understand it.
A force applied to the Grip transfers to the slide. The slide then moves away from the grip/trigger control unit. Hopefully the worst that happens is the round is chambered and the gun is ready to fire.

That is indeed a spectacular illustration! Your artistic talents exceed even your grasp of the sciences.

(I kid, but seriously, "law of physics"? That's like if I cheated on my wife and tried to explain it away as a "biological necessity".)

To me, a reliable firearm will not have this dubious "feature". Again, I'm not saying the P250 as a model is unreliable. I'm saying my personal P250 is acting in a way that none of my other firearms (nor any others I've shot) have acted--and it led to several unquestionable concerns, mainly semi-fed rounds or unfed rounds.

I was able to reproduce the issue in my 9mm model p250. If you smack the magazine hard enough, the slide does move forward and chamber a round. I tried it a couple of times... you have to hit it pretty hard to make it happen though. So the "worst case" is that it chambered a round and was ready to fire.

Mods - If this is inappropriate please delete. Im not sure how other sites are viewed here.

Anyway, I started a site and forum dedicated to the P250 and its owners. I am in no way trying to replace this forum and its wealth of information. I am just starting a forum (my first) dedicated to the P250. Why a site dedicated to one gun. Why not? I think with its modularity, it is destined to be a popular model that can be customized greatly. So I tried to set it up where we could organize all the info about the gun. Again, if this is inappropriate in any way, please delete this thread. I am not expecting the site to have a great deal of traffic since it is so specialized.

If you would like to come by and check it out, the address is www.p250sig.com. If you own the P250, stop by. Please keep in mind that I am new to starting a forum and I am sure there is going to be some problems here and there. Thanks.

Hawk

quote:

Originally posted by nimue144:
if the slide self-closing always fully chambered a round, I could at least consider it reliable for carry. However, as posted before, it repeatedly hung a round on the feed ramp or just left me with an empty chamber. That's not okay for self-defense purposes.

It seems to me that if you insert a mag, and the slide releases and didnt chamber a round, then you inserted it poorly or you didnt really insert it at all.

I cant think of anyway this could happen. The force of inserting the magazine doesnt make the slide release, its the force of your hand "hitting it home" .. how could you hit the bottom of the pistol (thus releasing the slide) w/o the mag being inserted far enough for a round to be stripped off?

quote:

Originally posted by htmlgod:
So the "worst case" is that it chambered a round and was ready to fire.

That was the worst case in your attempts. I'm pleased to hear it. However, the worst case in my experience (and I wasn't specifically attempting anything other than the same basic reload I've done countless times before with no trouble using a variety of different firearms) was either an empty chamber or a round hung up on the feed ramp.

quote:

Originally posted by Thrak:
It seems to me that if you insert a mag, and the slide releases and didnt chamber a round, then you inserted it poorly or you didnt really insert it at all.

Gosh, you nailed it! I wasn't really inserting the magazine into the firearm at all. I was just throwing it up into the air! I guess I was feeling flustered because I couldn't see anything, what with my head up my ass and all.

Come on, man.

quote:

I cant think of anyway this could happen. The force of inserting the magazine doesnt make the slide release, its the force of your hand "hitting it home" .. how could you hit the bottom of the pistol (thus releasing the slide) w/o the mag being inserted far enough for a round to be stripped off?

I don't know! As I have said previously, I have never experienced the slide releasing on its own with any other handgun. However, enough people here indicated that it happens to make me test it out.

I took my Beretta 96, attempted my normal reload, and as always the slide stayed in lock until I manually released it. I tried repeatedly, gradually increasing the force with which I drove home the mag, until the slide did in fact release upon impact. I tried the P250 again too, for comparison, and the difference was distinct; it took significantly more force to cause this on the Beretta. I have never had any occasion to use that much effort for a reload, and I can't imagine why I ever would.

Suffice to say that my P250 is a lot more sensitive to "reload impact" than any other weapon I've used, including other Sigs. I'd think it was weight-related, due to the polymer, except it's never happened to me with a Glock either. (Nor with an airweight J-frame... Thrak, any advice on inserting the magazine for one of those? I'm baffled!)

My concern remains the chambering issue. I said in a previous post that if the slide always came forward and fully chambered a round then I would view my P250 as reliable for carry. Unfortunately, this wasn't the case. Sometimes the slide closed with a round fully chambered. Sometimes the slide closed on an empty chamber, which I wouldn't know about until I pulled the trigger to no avail. Sometimes the slide only partially closed, with a round hung up on the ramp.

I don't know how to account for the different outcomes from the same action. I'd be thrilled to find out it was my fault, so I could simply change whatever I was doing wrong! However, keep in mind that I also had feed failures on a number of occasions while firing. I think that's the gun, guys (again, MY particular P250--not all of them).

Maybe it breaks in after a couple hundred more rounds. I really hope so. If not, Sig can check it out.

nimue144, how easy is it to actuate the slide release on your 250? I haven't had the issue you did, but I my slide release takes only a light touch to send the slide into battery. I wonder if, in your case, the notch milled into the slide for the release isn't sharp enough. In other words, perhaps the the notch is rounded or sloped. If this is the case, jarring the gun by inserting the mag sharply might be enough mmmph for the slide release lever spring to overcome the resistance provided by the recoil spring and and release the slide. Could be that the slide notch needs to be sharpened a tad so the slide release lever can better engage the slide.

nimue144,
I wonder if this is a flaw only with the .40 or your specific one? Have you called Sig yet? I'd like to know what they say. My first thought is that the gun needs repairs or a replacement.

Also, Comp-Tac now has holsters for the 250. Not sure when it was added to the website but I ordered one this weekend.

I have posted on the slide release issue before. Initially, I thought I was tripping the slide release with my thumb on the last round, thereby sending the slide home on an empty chamber. I would lose time between reloads as a result of not knowing I was empty.

I have used the P250 in the last three local IPSC meets and every time I have had the same problem where I would end up dropping the hammer on an empty chamber because the slide would not lock open. I have changed my grip to try to avoid this, but I now think it it a failure of the gun.

I have the 9mm model so it is not necessarily isolated to the .40. I guess I will send it back to Sig and have them look at it. As I have mentioned before, My Beretta PX4 will lock open normally and when I seat a fresh mag with a fair amount of authority, it will chamber a round. I have used this to my advantage in IPDA meets since I have practiced this reload often. My wife's EAA Witness does the same thing so it is not entirely abnormal for different pistols from different manufacturers to experience this.

I find that the slide release on the P250 does not require a lot of force to release the slide when it is locked back. I wonder if a stronger spring would increase the resistance of the lever? Another member had replaced the mag release button spring because they were accidentally releasing their mags. Maybe the same fix could end this problem.

quote:

Originally posted by remad:
Also, Comp-Tac now has holsters for the 250. Not sure when it was added to the website but I ordered one this weekend.

Score! Funny thing is, I check about a week ago. Nice catch!

I'm assuming it's for the Compact length slide.