Where are these guns? I saw a post on here from one FFL that got one and a report of some being spotted somewhere else. None of the dealers that were on the classified section seem to have gotten them yet and they were suppose to get some. Did sig shaft a bunch of them like they did with the rifle? Example, my local dealer was told that if they buy a buttload of guns they would be the first to get the rifle. They got their first 556 from sig last week. They had to purchase the 556's from their distrigutors when they were trying to sell them. When the sig rep called them about the 250 they told them to stick it.

quote:

Originally posted by Cobra64:

quote:

Originally posted by PistolPackingParson:
I must agree with ScrappyJack. Why shouldn't SIG recover their development costs? If it bugs you that much, don't buy one...Go and buy a gun from a company that eats the R&D costs. I promise you, you won't find one; I don't think that there are any non-profits in the arms business.

Agreed. R&D expense is above the line on a P&L. It's part of doing business.

More folks need to take a high school accounting class.

Phamaceutical companies spend more on R&D than they do pumping out pills.

As a CPA and current CFO of a $40M/year business I believe there is merit in being angry that Sig is passing along the development cost overrun in this way. Companies will always pass along development costs, this is as expected. What is upsetting in this case is that what I believe is being passed is the unplanned development overrun. I am sure that the original business plan did not plan on only offering one magazine. As they screwed up the development (meaning it costs them more than originally planned) instead of reducing their profit projections they made the conscious decision to pass their overrun to us the consumer by only providing one magazine and jacking up the price on the extras. Conversely Sig could have implemented one of dozens of marketing strategies to increase the volume of sales without compromising the value to the customer in the package they are purchasing. Reducing the value of the package and increasing the price of accessories is the easiest and most customer unfriendly way of fixing their mistake.

So yes, we are fully within our rights to be angry at being the cop-outs for Sigs engineering issues with this gun. This being said this is all monday morning quarterbacking. I believe Sig has provided a good product and I will probably buy it but I believe they are not doing a great job when it comes to new product introductions, which, admittedly, are very hard to get right.

quote:

Originally posted by Lock_N_Load:

quote:

Originally posted by Cobra64:

quote:

Originally posted by PistolPackingParson:
I must agree with ScrappyJack. Why shouldn't SIG recover their development costs? If it bugs you that much, don't buy one...Go and buy a gun from a company that eats the R&D costs. I promise you, you won't find one; I don't think that there are any non-profits in the arms business.

Agreed. R&D expense is above the line on a P&L. It's part of doing business.

More folks need to take a high school accounting class.

Phamaceutical companies spend more on R&D than they do pumping out pills.

As a CPA and current CFO of a $40M/year business I believe there is merit in being angry that Sig is passing along the development cost overrun in this way. Companies will always pass along development costs, this is as expected. What is upsetting in this case is that what I believe is being passed is the unplanned development overrun. I am sure that the original business plan did not plan on only offering one magazine. As they screwed up the development (meaning it costs them more than originally planned) instead of reducing their profit projections they made the conscious decision to pass their overrun to us the consumer by only providing one magazine and jacking up the price on the extras. Conversely Sig could have implemented one of dozens of marketing strategies to increase the volume of sales without compromising the value to the customer in the package they are purchasing. Reducing the value of the package and increasing the price of accessories is the easiest and most customer unfriendly way of fixing their mistake.

So yes, we are fully within our rights to be angry at being the cop-outs for Sigs engineering issues with this gun. This being said this is all monday morning quarterbacking. I believe Sig has provided a good product and I will probably buy it but I believe they are not doing a great job when it comes to new product introductions, which, admittedly, are very hard to get right.

+1, Sig is being short sighted in their pricing of this gun. I just hope Sig doesn't pull an Apple and drop their price in a couple months after all their loyal customers have dished out the big bucks.

In my opinion Sig should keep their price lower and recoup R&D costs over the longterm buy making their product more appealing to the service pistol market, which is about $200-$300 less then what they are coming it at, that way their sales volume will be much hire.

OK OK! So I'm biased when stating that recovering R&D costs on the backs of CIVILIAN BUYERS is less than proper. Nonetheless, I'll stand by my opinion.

SIG and many other manufacturers sell the bulk of the weapons to military and police agencies around the world. If you are flush enough to be OK with them recovering the majority of R&D costs from civilians, in order to give cut-rate prices to these other agencies - be comfortable.

I am quite sure they didn't develope the gun for ONLY the PRIVATE SECTOR/CIVILIAN MARKET. Yet, some "flush folks" are open to paying the majority of the RD cost; please feel free to pay mine as well.

I'm comfortable in NOT throwing hands full of cash their way to reward them for charging civilians more so they can give military and other sales a big cut.

I underestimated the number of flush folks we have out here. I'll stand in the corner for not wanting to bent over by SIG or any other big corporation who feels "selling LESS for MORE" is the accepted practice of 2007 and beyond.

The second mag wouldn't break SIG. If SIG wants to return to being a leader - they should avoid following the KIMBER PHILOSOPHY. If they continue to do so - good gun or not - they will sooner or later run out of SIG lovers who have cash to burn.

Repeating myself from an earlier post: After the 1911 fiasco, I'll not buy by "brand name reputation" again. My early release 1911 (GSR) was junk - it remained junk and there is nothing to lead me to believe a guaranteed reliability factor has increased with the "revolutionary design" of the 250.

I'll keep my 220 - 226 - 228 - 229 - 239 - Sig Pro (2340) etc. - but avoid the "less is more" urge to be the first kid on the block to pay premium dollar for a new design - complete with fewer accessories.

quote:

Originally posted by cycleben:
More folks need to take a high school accounting class.

Yes and if they did they might well find that recovering costs over time - through increased sales is far superior to recovering the costs on the compulsive buyer.

Then after doing so, dropping the price to gain the portion of the market which resisted being the whipping-boys on newly released products.

It may be the accepted way - it does not make it the best way; unless the 'buy sight unseen boys' can afford to pick up ALL the costs.

SO, enough said. I'll not be changing my mind and the flush folks won't change theirs. I suppose I owe THEM a "THANK YOU" for picking up the portion I refuse to pay. I can use the extra cash - and I have great patience - so I'll wait on 'buying'.

quote:

Originally posted by Support4Firearms:
OK OK! So I'm biased when stating that recovering R&D costs on the backs of CIVILIAN BUYERS is less than proper. Nonetheless, I'll stand by my opinion.

SIG and many other manufacturers sell the bulk of the weapons to military and police agencies around the world.

And where does the money come from to pay for those government purchases? From civilian tax-payers.


I can certainly understand the desire to spend less, especially given the consideration that competitors and substitutes like Glock, XD, and the M&P lines are priced less with more stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by Support4Firearms:

quote:

Originally posted by cycleben:
More folks need to take a high school accounting class.

Yes and if they did they might well find that recovering costs over time - through increased sales is far superior to recovering the costs on the compulsive buyer.

Operative word: might. True. And ScrappyJack,

It is my understanding that this model was initally developed by SiG Germany. For whatever reasons, it did not satisy USA requirements (I don't know all the details - I don't really care).

How do we know how R&D costs are being amortized? How much of the R&D expenses were charged against SiG Germany? Is SiG USA an isolated profit center from SiG Germany?

It seems to me that one would have to have a conversation with the Exeter CFO before jumping to conclusions and assuming that SiG is going to whack civilian buyers by front-loading.

At the end of the day, if the transaction purchase price of the P250 doesn't meet one's expectations, there are other alternatives.

You are right.This gun was produced in Germany four or five years ago only with a heavier trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by Cobra64:

quote:

Originally posted by Support4Firearms:

quote:

Originally posted by cycleben:
More folks need to take a high school accounting class.

Yes and if they did they might well find that recovering costs over time - through increased sales is far superior to recovering the costs on the compulsive buyer.

Operative word: might. True. And ScrappyJack,

It is my understanding that this model was initally developed by SiG Germany. For whatever reasons, it did not satisy USA requirements (I don't know all the details - I don't really care).

How do we know how R&D costs are being amortized? How much of the R&D expenses were charged against SiG Germany? Is SiG USA an isolated profit center from SiG Germany?

It seems to me that one would have to have a conversation with the Exeter CFO before jumping to conclusions and assuming that SiG is going to whack civilian buyers by front-loading.

At the end of the day, if the transaction purchase price of the P250 doesn't meet one's expectations, there are other alternatives.

I think I read in another post that the price for the P250 in Germany is around $900 US. A chunk of this of this is probably exchange rate, but I would say it is a strong possibility our German brethren are getting porked as well. They, however, get two mags in their package.

In the end Sig will pass the costs along disproportionally to the more price inelastic market. Is that the U.S.? Who knows? But concluding that the U.S. is not getting porked because there is a European market is not correct. Sig is fully within their rights to disproportionally pork the more price inelastic market. In the end we can safely conclude that Sigs Kimber-like strategy with their mags is piss-poor marketing. Can we atr least agree on that.

The message to Sig execs is leave the piss-poor marketing and operational strategies back at Kimber. This is a good gun that may fail because of very stupid product introduction mistakes/compromises. Very irritating....

quote:

Originally posted by Lock_N_Load:
This is a good gun that may fail because of very stupid product introduction mistakes/compromises. Very irritating....

Case in point is the Bersa Thunder 9. When the family was looking at a standard 9mm, it looked a good buy at $299. However, the mags are $54 a piece. I consider a standard loadout as a pistol + 6 mags. This is $299 + ($54 new mags x 6) = $623. A police surplus G17 was $365 + ($19 new mags x 6) = $479. Spread that over eight adults, so it was $1152 difference. So, we choose Glocks based on what the overall package price was going to be.

I'm afraid the same will happen here. Let's discount the MSRP of $699 at the same rate as the afore mentioned SigPro which would give a street price of $627. Now a total package cost for me is $627 + ($54 x 6) = $951.

I can only hope that the mags are interchangeable across calibers like the 9mm and .40S&W in the XD. This would lessen the pinch of having multiple calibers in this pistol.

Hopefully, Sig will get their head out of rectal defilade on this one.

wganz

quote:

Originally posted by wganz:

...Hopefully, Sig will get their head out of rectal defilade on this one.

wganz

I fear that SIG is going down a path that all major arms manufacturers have to tread. I don't think that the P250 was bold move of innovation but one of reaction. Read the posts here and you'll see continuing problems in QC from NIB and CPO guns coming out of SIG. And I know some will poo-poo this, but the QC and engineering problems on the GSR hurt SIG's reputation. There was a decision to focus on high-end specialty guns- the unique pieces- at the expense of standard base-line guns. I think SIG has forgotten who it is and why and how it got here.

They are on a quest to turn it around, but I don't think the P250 is the thing that will do it because they haven't hit bottom yet. Smith and Wesson is a great example. If things hadn't gone so far south for them when they were owned by the Brits, I don't think they'd be where they are today.

I've owned SIGs for a long time, and I can say without a doubt that it's not the same company it used to be and the overall product quality is down, yet the prices are up... Just read wganz's post in full. Will I continue to own and buy SIGs? Yes, nostalgia guarantees that. But will I buy a P250...Highly doubtful.

quote:

Originally posted by PistolPackingParson:

quote:

Originally posted by wganz:

...Hopefully, Sig will get their head out of rectal defilade on this one.

wganz

Will I continue to own and buy SIGs? Yes, nostalgia guarantees that. But will I buy a P250...Highly doubtful.

There are no nostalgia models left. It's doubtful that anyone in Exeter is reading or paying attention to the polls posted here by Sig loyalists.

Case in point, a DAK trigger system directed towards the LEO and military market, that is the only option on a SAS which is directed towards the CC civilain market.

Rails on match pistols?

I don't understand the logic.

In Sigs defense didn't they lower the price for awhile on the 2022s after they scored that big French contract?

Originally posted by PistolPackingParson:

PPP: --- "I fear that SIG is going down a path that all major arms manufacturers have to tread."
ME: --- FINALLY, someone speaks the truth.

PPP: --- "And I know some will poo-poo this, but the QC and engineering problems on the GSR hurt SIG's reputation."
ME: ---MY 1911 look-alike was JUNK from the factory! Machine work was horrible, trigger like sandpaper and the finish was as if they were TRYING to do a half-assed job! They FINALLY REPLACED the junk with one which I immediately checked-out as to SAFE and RELIABLE function --- then SOLD!

PPP: --- "I think SIG has forgotten who it is and why and how it got here."
ME: --- They have certainly forgotten 'John-Q-Public' and Customer Service.

PPP: ---- "I've owned SIGs for a long time, and I can say without a doubt that it's not the same company it used to be and the overall product quality is down, yet the prices are up..."
ME: --- AGAIN, someone who sees the proverbial light!

PPP: --- "Will I continue to own and buy SIGs? Yes, nostalgia guarantees that. But will I buy a P250...Highly doubtful."
ME: --- NOT until they have been out a LONG TIME and given wonderful reviews HERE and ELSEWHERE! Not in magazines that virtually NEVER point out the bad aspects!

I was eagerly awaiting P250 release, but the whole $600+, one mag, "total cost to own" has really killed it for me. Especially when browsing all those other guns at the shop.
PP

I had contemplated a P-250, but today at the gunshop, I decided that the XD SubCompact just had to come home with me instead. Very nice feel in the hand and dang nice trigger as well. Two mags, one a hi cap (16 rounds!). Relatively well proven design, as well. And at $495, well priced.

I agree that a P-250 will be a long ways off for me too... until proven with awesome owner reviews. It's the trigger that really holds me off from the P-250.

quote:

I had contemplated a P-250, but today at the gunshop, I decided that the XD SubCompact just had to come home with me instead

Congrats on your new XD; I don't think that you can go wrong with any of the XD's. I hope that it works to perfection for you. You didn't by chance trade in another polymer for it?

I think that I will wait for the P250 sub-compact for my next purchase; in the meantime, my G26 will continue to serve me well.. stay safe.

quote:

Congrats on your new XD; I don't think that you can go wrong with any of the XD's. I hope that it works to perfection for you. You didn't by chance trade in another polymer for it?

Woodspirits... truth be told, I bought the XD-9 SubCompact for my girlfriend. On recent gun exploring trips, she expressed the best feelings for this gun vs. a variety of others. Of course, I wouldn't have bought it for her had I NOT been totally confident in the wisdom of the choice. I think the XD guns are excellent guns... just not my first choice. My primary carry is a Glock 23, which I love.

Personally, when it comes to 9mm, I honestly and truly believe that the GLock 19 IS perfection. I've got a heck of a lot of semi-auto pistols, but when you put together the needs of compact and lightweight form, high capacity, stone reliability, steadfast durability, wonderful accuracy, and a nice trigger to boot... I come up with Glock 19 every time. Mine has a 3.5# connector (giving a 4.75# pull) and a smooth-faced trigger for better feel on the finger. Firing mine tonight... incredible accuracy and wonderful shooting given all the other factors of the gun. In short, I LOVE the Glock 19! I like it so much that it causes me to question carrying my Glock 23 when I could be carrying the 19. No matter... they're both incredible pistols in every respect.

P-250 Vid on Down Range TV.
http://www.downrange.tv/player.htm?bcpid=452320104&bcli...6134&bctid=133328186

ok ... I just saw the first P250 for sale on gunsamerica and I have to ask ... what was the question that this is the answer to ? ... that is one ugly gun