Here is another person's take on gripping your gun.

http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/whats-wrong-grip/

quote:

Originally posted by justjoe:

What Vogel has done, I think, is tailored his grip to achieve the absolutes in a way that suits his anatomy.

Not as much anatomy as his physical strength. Vogel's support hand position is an intermediate between a finger in front of a trigger guard and a conventional grip position. Finger in front of a trigger guard places a support hand even higher on the frame than Vogel's grip. The issue with that is that both of these grips take the support index finger, which is a strongest opposing finger, out. Because it now contacts the trigger guard, it doesn't contribute anything to a pressure that support hand puts into a frame. Vogel is rumored to be able to close 2.5 CoC grips and can compensate for this loss with the rest of his support hand's fingers. Most people, not so much.
I gave his grip an honest 6-8 months and didn't get anything good out of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Strambo:
You are compromising your 2-hand grip for an over-thought and non-existent reason IMHO. The one-handed grip does not work the way you describe in practice. It would take an un-natural effort to keep the strong side thumb up and floating in the air shooting one-handed. In the thumbs-forward 2 hand grip, the strong thumb is pushing down on the weak thumb. When the weak hand isn't there, it just pushes down until contacting the frame...in the strong "hammer" grip you are talking about. It happens without thought or any training to make it so. It is just how things are held with one hand.

That still involves shifting strong hand to a one handed hammer grip and then back to a two handed thumbs forward grip as the situation changes. Under stress I don't want to have to be shifting my grip at all. Also you did not address the problem with thumbs forward grip under stress while shooting a revolver.

Here is a vid from Sheriff Jim Wilson. He lays out some of my concerns.
<br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGoj0w0YEK0" target="_blank">View on YouTube</a>

quote:

Originally posted by Fenris
That still involves shifting strong hand to a one handed hammer grip and then back to a two handed thumbs forward grip as the situation changes. Under stress I don't want to have to be shifting my grip at all. Also you did not address the problem with thumbs forward grip under stress while shooting a revolver.

Nothing shifts at all and I don't shoot a revolver, when I have I've paid attention to the cylinder gap and it was fine.

I do know a bit about shooting under stress and how to train to shoot under stress. If the grip had to be different or require any thought or "shifting" I wouldn't do it.

I just watched the video you posted. Total non-issues. Recoil control is better with the thumbs forward grip because a) it is higher and b) there is a lot more support hand contacting the frame. Additionally, I call BS that the gun is easier to take away, there is more support hand contact with the thumbs high grip so let's call it a wash. In any case, I can't imagine one of those grips one way or the other being a deciding factor in a gun take away.

If you actually carry a small defensive revolver on occasion, then you got me there. The grip you advocate and Sheriff Wilson demonstrates is the same one my wife uses...her gun is a revolver (but I shoot it thumbs-forward no problem).

Shooting both grips back to back I notice a pretty fair decrease in recoil management and control due to the support palm being forced off the grip frame when the left thumb overlaps. YMMV.

The sooner one realizes there is no one "right" way to shoot, the better off they are. Just like there is no one "right" gun, there is no one "right" way to shoot.

Well that is why God made horse races. Hammer grip works for me. If you like the thumb forward grip you are in good company. Many, if not most, of the best shooter and instructors recommend it, just not for me.

I would however like to suggest that you do a little re-thinking about using that grip with revolvers. But it is your choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Fenris:

I would however like to suggest that you do a little re-thinking about using that grip with revolvers. But it is your choice.

You do realize that grip is horribly exaggerated right? There is about 3"-4" of air between the strong hand and the support hand. Absurd. The hands are deliberately not conforming to the grip and backstrap (note the gap in front of strong hand thumb web), the curved revolver backstrap tends to point the thumbs downward, not forward.

Anyway, I'm not advocating thumbs forward for revolvers, but that photo is just silly.

Exaggerated? Of course.
Silly? Absolutely.

But it makes a point.
And there are worse ones out there.

I pretty much do this.

Guess it's good I don't recommend a thumbs forward revolver grip then. I don't ever carry one and I think the odds of getting in a gunfight, then having to rely on a "battlefield pickup" revolver and then my grip being an issue is a bit of a stretch.

Do you have both revolvers and autos for defensive use? You mention doing the same things under stress as being so important, how do you resolve the completely different manual of arms? Seems a reload or a malfunction drill would be a big problemo under stress.

If not, why would having a grip that also works with revolvers matter?

Ignore Sheriff Jim.
Even his example of a thumbs forward grip doesn't get the support hand high enough or angled correctly.
The fact that is that if you are shooting slowly then it doesn't matter much at all how you are gripping. You will have plenty of time to recover your sights and casually shoot again. The faster you shoot, the more important it becomes to control your gun through proper technique if you want to maintain accuracy.
Here is Jerry Miculek's take:

https://youtu.be/ChSazF41q-s

quote:

Originally posted by cas:
One size does not fit all.

It's not complicated, whatever works best for you is what works best for you.

quote:

Originally posted by Photoman:
The sooner one realizes there is no one "right" way to shoot, the better off they are. Just like there is no one "right" gun, there is no one "right" way to shoot.

+1+1

quote:

Originally posted by thunderson:

quote:

Originally posted by ArtieS:
That looks similar to the grip jljones demonstrates in the recently posted video on a controlling grip. Vogel's weak hand looks to be slightly further up and forward than Jerry's.

I was going to try Jerry's grip the next time I shot, as I am using a more traditional Weaver thumbs forward grip. I will likely also try Vogel's, although I do have the meatier hands he mentions, and I am not looking for tracks in the thick of my thumb.

Thanks for posting.

I missed that vid post. Tried a search. Could you point me in the right direction to find it?

I'll see if I can find it. It was in the "My Glock Shoots Low Left" thread, and so far, I haven't been able to locate the thread. I'll check YouTube for the actual vid.

ETA: Here it is. Jerry is talking about grip pressure and trigger pull, but I noted that his grip is much more forward than my typical grip, and want to try it for better control.

Thanks ArtieS.

Holy Facebook bait and click title, Batman.

As to the "there is no one grip/one size fits all" thing.....it is a meaningless platitude.

I know some guys that are the best across-the-creek-beer-can-shooters that they know with a Smith and Wesson Model 18. They cup and saucer that K frame like a pro. And they can hit that beer can every time. Every. Time. Shooting 7 second splits, thumb cocking the hammer each time. Yep, they are rocking that cup and saucer. That is "the best" grip for them. No one size fits all. BTW, they saw a TV detective use this grip, so it has to be legit.

All the people that shoot stuff for a living (matches/people) do so with a thumbs forward grip or a variation of that. The "no one size fits all" is just a meaningless platitude. Because if you want to be fast and accurate, your grip has to do several things. First, it has to hit a couple of index points remaining high on the pistol. If not, recoil attempts to fill in those spots and creates unnecessary movement at speed. Secondly, the support hand plays a big part in mitigating (not controlling) recoil. (Recoil is actually necessary in speed shooting). Third, the hands need to provide as close to 360 degree support around the pistol. Without 360, it gives the opportunity for the hands to separate/break. All of these things are designed to aid the shooter in getting the sights back on target for follow up shots as quickly as possible. That is really the essence of what grip is all about. The thumbs forward does this job most efficiently.

I can't confirm it, but I was told by an older USPSA great that no one has won a major title in Action Pistol with anything other than a thumbs forward grip since 1984-1985 in modern semi-auto pistols. This sort of stuff will tell you something if you'll listen.

There isn't "only one" grip. But, there is if you are looking to be fast and accurate.

Edited to fix a spelling error.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jljones,

Gun range opened up near me. They have ladies night so I am looking forward to some regular shooting.

I want to try some of these variations.

jljones...please know I share this purely in a conversational and friendly tone.

I, as I'm sure many others have great respect for you, what you do, and your contributions here as well as the many others that share their expertise. I do however kindly and humbly disagree with referring to people's sharing of personal experiences and preferences that work well for them and that are different than the currently more popular method, "meaningless platitudes". If a particular grip safely and consistently works better for someone than some variation of thumbs forward, it is neither meaningless nor a platitude, and relevant to share.

Having somewhat smaller hands and shorter fingers, a thumb over thumb grip works consistently well for me, regardless of the size or layout of the semi-auto pistol I’m shooting, while keeping my hands and fingers away from things I don't want to inadvertently touch or brush against during recoil control. I can still grip the pistol high on the frame though while keeping my thumbs away from the slide and controls. Not so with thumbs forward on many guns for me. I will state one thing with absolute certainty. In my experience, and as observed in others at shoots, trainings, and informal range practice, regardless of if a thumbs forward / thumbs up grip theoretically or in practice "works better" for many people, it is also infinitely more prone to a user induced malfunction (inadvertently activating a safety, slide stop, or even a mag release, feeding / slide friction related malfunctions, etc.) than a grip with a lower thumb orientation. You have little margin for error. You can train around it, train to minimize it, modify or choose your equipment to try and avoid it, but people are not perfect no matter how much they train and it is still physically much more likely to happen than with a thumb over thumb grip, especially for the average shooter.

Some of us may not be expending thousands and thousands of rounds a year perfecting our thumbs forward grip on a particular firearm platform or even in general, but by the same token we can still pick up just about any semi-auto and not have to worry too much about where the controls are or if we are going to accidentally rub the slide, while shooting pretty darn good for fun or for foe, with a lot lower than 7 second splits.

Thanks for the kind words and comments.

Fortunate is the man who can establish a two hand grip on their secondary weapon when thrust into a combat situation