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I leave my SIGs box stock without modification.

I've been there and done that and have come to the conclusion that some mods may be good and some are without question bad.

The engineers that design and test these guns are more qualified than I am to decide what works for a particular pistol. I am content with that concept, so after numerous suboptimal experiences of attempting to improve on the manufacturer's engineers' design I now leave the weapon alone and keep it as it comes out of the box.




P226 Blackwater (1st edition, non-rail)
NRA Life Member
 
Posts: 640 | Registered: May 29, 2008Report This Post
It's all part of
the adventure...
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Nothing at all wrong with that! Some things don't need messin' with. On the other hand, sometimes adding a few personal touches can be fun and functional.

Leaving you SD gun box-stock removes some things an opposition lawyer might try to use against you.

Of course, that might just be internet lore. Wink

Bottom line -- your gun, your choice!


Regards From Sunny Tucson,
SigFan

"Faith isn't believing that God can; it's knowing that He will." (From a sign on a church in Nicholasville, Kentucky)
 
Posts: 696 | Location: Tucson, Arizona | Registered: January 30, 2000Report This Post
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All of my Sigs have stayed in the condition they were when I received them. As was said, those engineers know way more than me.
 
Posts: 4363 | Location: Middletown, PA | Registered: January 09, 2007Report This Post
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Heh, I can't resist "improving" things. Nothing crazy on a defensive gun; sights, maybe grips, maybe a professional trigger job.

A 19lb mainspring makes a big improvement to the P series without any reliability issues and SIG themselves designed the SRT modification after gunsmiths like Bruce Gray had been doing it for years.

I like the back and forth between the gunsmiths, competition shooters, military, and manufacturers. It results in solid improvements from the factory (as well as new models) so less has to be done (or none?) aftermarket.

We all benefit from the market in customization.




“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik

The world's a dangerous place, we can help! http://portlandfirearmtraining.com/
 
Posts: 3643 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Report This Post
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quote:
A 19lb mainspring makes a big improvement to the P series without any reliability issues and SIG themselves designed the SRT modification after gunsmiths like Bruce Gray had been doing it for years.


That's an interesting assertion. Is your background in mechanical or industrial?

What exactly is the big improvement, and why didn't the engineers implement it in the first place?




P226 Blackwater (1st edition, non-rail)
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Posts: 640 | Registered: May 29, 2008Report This Post
Oriental Redneck
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The engineers, or whoever designed them, surely know more than me. But, that doesn't necessarily mean the some of the guns cannot be improved upon. That's just fact.
 
Posts: 16165 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by p226n:
quote:
A 19lb mainspring makes a big improvement to the P series without any reliability issues and SIG themselves designed the SRT modification after gunsmiths like Bruce Gray had been doing it for years.


That's an interesting assertion. Is your background in mechanical or industrial?

What exactly is the big improvement, and why didn't the engineers implement it in the first place?


Big improvement in the trigger pull to my subjective taste, big improvement via target feedback when running the gun at speed. I have no idea why they spec'd such a heavy mainspring...and an even heavier one still in the P6 until they came to their senses and started putting the lighter (standard) one in the P225s.

Your post kinda assumes a static state where even specific models aren't revisited and revised over the years with the specs being changed. Also assumes the engineers are infallible and/or got it "perfect" the first time neither over-nor under engineering certain parts. Not to mention artificial outside influences on design that may have nothing (or nothing good) to do with reliability and function. The BHP mag safety comes to mind. Or, the slide mounted safety/decocker on the M9.

Why not ask the same question of the Sig engineers who revised the mainspring housing and hammer strut length and totally changed up the trigger reset in the P series? Why didn't the first engineers implement all that?

I've got a bone stock guns as well.




“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik

The world's a dangerous place, we can help! http://portlandfirearmtraining.com/
 
Posts: 3643 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Report This Post
Oriental Redneck
Picture of 12131
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quote:
Originally posted by p226n:
quote:
A 19lb mainspring makes a big improvement to the P series without any reliability issues and SIG themselves designed the SRT modification after gunsmiths like Bruce Gray had been doing it for years.


That's an interesting assertion. Is your background in mechanical or industrial?
Why does one need to have said background?

What exactly is the big improvement, and why didn't the engineers implement it in the first place?
If you like a 20-lb trigger pull, fine, but many folks like lighter ones without affecting the gun's reliability.

Cool
 
Posts: 16165 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Report This Post
Oriental Redneck
Picture of 12131
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Strambo:
quote:
Originally posted by p226n:
quote:
A 19lb mainspring makes a big improvement to the P series without any reliability issues and SIG themselves designed the SRT modification after gunsmiths like Bruce Gray had been doing it for years.


That's an interesting assertion. Is your background in mechanical or industrial?

What exactly is the big improvement, and why didn't the engineers implement it in the first place?


Big improvement in the trigger pull to my subjective taste, big improvement via target feedback when running the gun at speed. I have no idea why they spec'd such a heavy mainspring...and an even heavier one still in the P6 until they came to their senses and started putting the lighter (standard) one in the P225s.

Your post kinda assumes a static state where even specific models aren't revisited and revised over the years with the specs being changed. Also assumes the engineers are infallible and/or got it "perfect" the first time neither over-nor under engineering certain parts. Not to mention artificial outside influences on design that may have nothing (or nothing good) to do with reliability and function. The BHP mag safety comes to mind. Or, the slide mounted safety/decocker on the M9.

Why not ask the same question of the Sig engineers who revised the mainspring housing and hammer strut length and totally changed up the trigger reset in the P series? Why didn't the first engineers implement all that?

I've got a bone stock guns as well.

They were fake engineers. Big Grin
 
Posts: 16165 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Report This Post
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No assumptions, guys. Just wondered if we had a ME or IE opining.

Nobody needs to have said background.

No need for shields up. When someone says there's a big improvement, I want to know why they say that.

Shields down please.




P226 Blackwater (1st edition, non-rail)
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Posts: 640 | Registered: May 29, 2008Report This Post
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What is the big improvement? Are you seriously asking that or are you trying to be clever? Your base assertion might be true if engineers and engineers only were who designed guns. They aren’t. That is a fact. You have lawyers and marketing guys and bean counters among others. Everyone gets their hand in.

If SIG puts a 24 lb mainspring in you somehow think that that is the Magic best spring? Really? You drop the poundage down and can easily maintain 100% reliability and lighten the DA pull by a lot. Your shooting improves. How about that.

If you don’t want to change anything then more power to you. If you don’t want to change anything because you think SIG produces the perfect gun out of the box you are delirious. If you don’t want to change things because in the past you have messed something up well don’t do anything you can’t undo.

You kind of got on your high horse there a bit. Would you ask that same engineering degree question to John Moses Browning? I fucking doubt it.
 
Posts: 1895 | Registered: June 18, 2005Report This Post
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quote:
They were fake engineers.


So anyone with the moniker Oriental Redneck gets a pass on the relevant discussion scale, because you have to love an Oriental Redneck. You just do. Smile




P226 Blackwater (1st edition, non-rail)
NRA Life Member
 
Posts: 640 | Registered: May 29, 2008Report This Post
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Picture of p226n
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quote:
What is the big improvement? Are you seriously asking that or are you trying to be clever? Your base assertion might be true if engineers and engineers only were who designed guns. They aren’t. That is a fact. You have lawyers and marketing guys and bean counters among others. Everyone gets their hand in.

If SIG puts a 24 lb mainspring in you somehow think that that is the Magic best spring? Really? You drop the poundage down and can easily maintain 100% reliability and lighten the DA pull by a lot. Your shooting improves. How about that.

If you don’t want to change anything then more power to you. If you don’t want to change anything because you think SIG produces the perfect gun out of the box you are delirious. If you don’t want to change things because in the past you have messed something up well don’t do anything you can’t undo.

You kind of got on your high horse there a bit. Would you ask that same engineering degree question to John Moses Browning? I fucking doubt it.


So now I see this crap. Hey pedro, get a sense of humor. Alternatively, skip this thread and go to the #I'mperpetuallypissedoffandloadedforbear forum.

What on earth.




P226 Blackwater (1st edition, non-rail)
NRA Life Member
 
Posts: 640 | Registered: May 29, 2008Report This Post
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I don't think there is anything wrong with leaving a gun, with a proven reputation for reliability, bone stock for defensive use. Heck, it is what I have taken to war zones on 3 separate occasions including a stock P226.

I also know it is easy to take a reliable gun and modify it to un-reliability, so any mods to a defensive gun should be very carefully considered.

That said; sights, grips, different size controls (usually), and finishes are freebies that won't, or at least shouldn't except in extreme cases affect reliability.

Trigger jobs, action jobs may. Aftermarket barrels and internals may. Aftermarket springs may.




“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik

The world's a dangerous place, we can help! http://portlandfirearmtraining.com/
 
Posts: 3643 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Report This Post
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Oh brother. You post a thread and everybody responds reasonably. You don’t like the responses so you try to demean the poster by implying they don’t have the proper educational background to back up their opinion. Everyone jumps your shit which you deserve. But now, it was all because no one understood you were just joking. We need to get a sense of humor. Whatever.
 
Posts: 1895 | Registered: June 18, 2005Report This Post
Oriental Redneck
Picture of 12131
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by p226n:
quote:
They were fake engineers.


So anyone with the moniker Oriental Redneck gets a pass on the relevant discussion scale, because you have to love an Oriental Redneck. You just do. Smile

Trying to be clever, but your dishonesty is plainly obvious. Just like the fake media taking things out of context. Enjoy your stock SIGs.
 
Posts: 16165 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Report This Post
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I also know it is easy to take a reliable gun and modify it to un-reliability, so any mods to a defensive gun should be very carefully considered.


Believe me, I've done this in years past at great expense. It would be bad form to mention names so I won't (and none to my knowledge are participants here) but I've spent thousands on various mods to various weapons with underwhelming results. I'm embarrassed to admit that my reason for seeking the grail of the modification has usually been something I read in a gun magazine or the like.




P226 Blackwater (1st edition, non-rail)
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Posts: 640 | Registered: May 29, 2008Report This Post
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I know the engineers know more than me.
I also know that the engineers aren't the ones hand building my guns, one at a time, with unlimited time to hand fit them until they match the blueprint.
Mass manufacturing leads to loose tolerances and tolerance stacking.

I like the idea of giving a gun to a competent gunsmith and allowing him the time to fully express what the engineer was trying to say.

Bruce





"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child — miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
-PJ O'Rourke
“It is just as difficult and dangerous to try to free a people that wants to remain servile as it is to try to enslave a people that wants to remain free." -Niccolo Machiavelli

 
Posts: 2781 | Location: NV | Registered: October 06, 2011Report This Post
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We'll this thread went sideways rather quickly.

Let's try to get it back on track.

I generally leave my guns pretty stock. Change grips, sights if factory NS isn't an option. I don't tinker with triggers, not because I believe in the overzealous prosecutor theory, or the engineers know best theory. Simply because I don't see the return on investment as worth it. I'm a decent shot. I believe fundamentals translate across platforms. You could hand me a souped up race gun and I'm gonna shoot just the same as I do my EDC. Hell, I might shoot it worse.

Now that's not to say the great shooters can't make use of the little tweaks. Why else would they do them? But I do think most shooters do themselves a disservice with most of their mods. They're better off improving their fundamentals than masking their deficiencies with modifications. Sure, it's their money and their gun, they can do what they like, but I will point out it's not likely to magically make them better.

Then, how many times have we seen someone change everything on a Glock, then turn around and wonder why it's not reliable anymore? Now something like a mainspring is probably just fine to lighten a touch. When you're mass producing, you want to err on the side of caution and over engineer a bit just to make sure it works. A heavier than needed mainspring ensures it works for someone who loves using the crappiest ammo with hard primers. I'm convinced SIG and HK cut mag capacity just to make sure there's not likely issues. Though SIG seems to be indicating they're getting over that with the P229 finally getting standard 15 rounds and the P365.

Anyway, firearms aren't really all that complicated. It's not too hard to build a reliable one. It is, however, a challenge to mass produce reliable ones. So a little overengineering goes a long way. Plus, cost effectiveness comes into play.

For some, tinkering is another way they enjoy their firearm enthusiasm. Some believe it'll help them shoot better. Some it does help. Some hope they get noticed at the range. Some even try to take a $500 pistol, do $200 worth of mods and sell it for $1500. It takes all kinds to make the world go round.


------------------------------------------------
Charter member of the vast, right-wing conspiracy
 
Posts: 1438 | Registered: June 25, 2010Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by p226n:
When someone says there's a big improvement, I want to know why they say that.

Because many of us own and shoot pistols that have action work done by Bruce Gray and his team. And other competent gunsmiths, too. Discussions related to quality of Grayguns' work occurs regularly on this site, and has occurred for many years.

quote:
Originally posted by 12131:
Trying to be clever, but your dishonesty is plainly obvious. Just like the fake media taking things out of context. Enjoy your stock SIGs.

Bingo, bingo, bingo.
 
Posts: 5503 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Report This Post
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