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Surprize Call from Sig CS - P239 with Defective Frame Login/Join 
Oriental Redneck
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Originally posted by SevenPlusOne:
Ask them for a CZ-75, see what they say. Razz

They'll give him this one, instead. Big Grin

 
Posts: 16721 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
7.62mm Crusader
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Ta heck is that ? Big Grin
 
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Oriental Redneck
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Zavasta CZ999 Scorpion. Eek
 
Posts: 16721 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Mountain Walker:
Geo: While back, I read something written by Bruce Gray. He stated that it you are going to buy a P239 the 9mm was the better choice for those wishing to shoot them. He stated that the P239 pistols in 40SW loosened up very quickly and it was best to get a 9mm which could shoot lots of FMJ without much wear and then be fired limited amount with the 9mm defense loads. That might be what has happened to your P239 in 357Sig.


Good info sir - not good news at all but still very good to know - Thanks! I guess I am going to have to let it go. The looseness is mild but still noticeable if you are looking for it ... Frown
 
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Oriental Redneck
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The P239 is a known rattler, even in 9mm. I don't see it an issue, as long as it functions. Mine (9) was fine.
 
Posts: 16721 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by hrcjon:
If sig cannot replace a defective frame on a 239 it must mean that effectively the lifetime warranty is really a lifetime replacement with current product warranty. How hard is it really to fire up a cnc machine and make a frame. This is truly bizarre behavior by SIG>
I think that it is not all that easy to fire up CNC milling machine. Lot of labor from very skilled people to produce a perfect in spec frame. Pulling a pistol out of stock is far cheaper and they can use the defective pistol for parts in their repair program.
 
Posts: 1880 | Location: East Central Toadsuck, Florida | Registered: September 04, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by 12131:
The P239 is a known rattler, even in 9mm. I don't see it an issue, as long as it functions. Mine (9) was fine.
Your knowledge and input is really very helpful. I know that you have spent considerable time studying and collecting Sig pistols and sharing correct information is to our benefit and helps fine tune understanding of the Sig line. Info on the M-11 was also helpful because I already have a 229 and am now able to cross it off my list.
 
Posts: 1880 | Location: East Central Toadsuck, Florida | Registered: September 04, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think that it is not all that easy to fire up CNC milling machine. Lot of labor from very skilled people to produce a perfect in spec frame.

Not that it matters at all in this. but the above is just totally and completely incorrect. The point of a modern CNC mill is just what I noted. You put in the raw material, you tell it what to make and out comes the part. The kind of machines that SIG has (I've been there) don't require anything other than the correct computer code to make a frame. Now that wouldn't be true if we were making something new and unique, but they have been making these for quite a few years. If they wanted to, they can easily make frames. Other parts that might be cast or forged and outsourced not so much. But in any case they obviously are choosing not to make them.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
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Oriental Redneck
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quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
quote:
I think that it is not all that easy to fire up CNC milling machine. Lot of labor from very skilled people to produce a perfect in spec frame.

Not that it matters at all in this. but the above is just totally and completely incorrect. The point of a modern CNC mill is just what I noted. You put in the raw material, you tell it what to make and out comes the part. The kind of machines that SIG has (I've been there) don't require anything other than the correct computer code to make a frame. Now that wouldn't be true if we were making something new and unique, but they have been making these for quite a few years. If they wanted to, they can easily make frames. Other parts that might be cast or forged and outsourced not so much. But in any case they obviously are choosing not to make them.

But, still, pulling a gun already made is simply much easier than making a gun from scratch, no matter how quick the actual gun making process is. You're forgetting the administrative part - new gun, new serial number, new paperwork filing/dealing with the ATF, etc... I think SIG would rather go the former route. Wink
 
Posts: 16721 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Partially agree. SIG is in the gun production business, paperwork, serial numbers, ATF compliance are core requirements. They are not big deals. But the net effect of their decision on this frame is what I was noting above. you simply are never going to get your lifetime warranty of your favorite gun, you are going to get a new and different gun. If they don't make something you like, tough luck. For a gun long out of production I wouldn't be too tough on this, but for a gun produced as recently as the 239 its simply not acceptable.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
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Good info sir - not good news at all but still very good to know - Thanks! I guess I am going to have to let it go. The looseness is mild but still noticeable if you are looking for it ... Frown[/QUOTE]
See comments of 12131. It may a good piece to keep as occasional limited shooter and excellent defense tool. Keep in mind the 357Sig is an awesome round! I have a 239 in 40SW, which I think is an excellent substitute for a Colt Lwt Commander. I don't have to shoot the 239 40SW a lot and it is still quite useful tool.
 
Posts: 1880 | Location: East Central Toadsuck, Florida | Registered: September 04, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Behold my
Radiance!
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quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
quote:
I think that it is not all that easy to fire up CNC milling machine. Lot of labor from very skilled people to produce a perfect in spec frame.

Not that it matters at all in this. but the above is just totally and completely incorrect. The point of a modern CNC mill is just what I noted. You put in the raw material, you tell it what to make and out comes the part. The kind of machines that SIG has (I've been there) don't require anything other than the correct computer code to make a frame. Now that wouldn't be true if we were making something new and unique, but they have been making these for quite a few years. If they wanted to, they can easily make frames. Other parts that might be cast or forged and outsourced not so much. But in any case they obviously are choosing not to make them.


I’m sorry, but you have absolutely no concept of what’s really involved, nor in how off base your assertion is.

It’s simply not practical, if impossible, to simply “fire up” a machine and relaunch an entire obsolete line, like at all.

-Bruce




Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms. Now: Get some Lucas Extreme Duty Grease from Top Gun Supply and SIG Pro Shop, dammit! And remember: MOAC is coming again in 2017!

Visit us at http://opspectraining.com/product-cat/videos/ to order yours, and Thank You for making GGI the leader in custom SIG and HK pistols.

Bruce Gray, President
Grayguns Inc.
Grayguns.com / 541-468-3840
 
Posts: 9390 | Location: GGI's Secret Volcano Base near Spray, and Bruce's R&D custom shop in Reedsport, Oregon | Registered: October 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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To machine a single part is one thing. A handgun is far more than a single part, and involves multiple finishing processes and multiple steps.

I wouldn't fault Sig for offering to replace the firearm with a different firearm, due to the P239 being "obsolete." I operate equipment that's no longer made; I wouldn't expect the manufacturer to reopen the assembly line, and in several cases, the equipment I operate was made by operators who no longer exist.

When the current owner of the line and the design offers to either fix or replace with something else, it's enough. It's unreasonable to expect them to restart a closed line of manufacture.

As for the P239 rattle, mine do, and always did. It's the rounds in the magazine that rattle, not the pistol. They don't rattle until inserted and compressed slightly.
 
Posts: 2752 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oriental Redneck
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^^^^^ To be clear, the rattling I'm talking about is the slide-to-frame rattle, analogous to the AR15 upper-lower flopping, and has nothing to do with rounds in magazine rattling.
 
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Ammoholic
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Originally posted by 1KPerDay:
Agreed... if you don't have a 226, get one.


This for sure. If it was for CC then get a 225A-1. They are both superb. The 226 is the gun I'd save if my house was on fire. If I could grab two from the burning house M11-A1 would be my second choice.



Jesse

A couple SIGs and a few others
 
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addicted to trailing-throttle oversteer
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Direct replacement: pretty obvious that it's the P225-A1/A/whatever. Nice gun and I kind of would like to add one on myself.

Upgrade opportunity: P229 or P226. Me, I'd take the 'compact' over the full size 9 out of 10 times but YMMV. I own plenty of P226s but the P228/229 chassis just works dead-on right for me.
 
Posts: 8750 | Location: Drippin' wet | Registered: April 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It’s simply not practical, if impossible, to simply “fire up” a machine and relaunch an entire obsolete line, like at all.

I never said that, in any possible way. Firing up a production line is not what was being discussed. When you cease production, you do that. What I did say was that if SIG wanted to they could machine a new bare frame. They use an industry standard cnc mill (Makino for the most part) and provided that someone at SIG has not done something totally stupid its pretty simple to get that mill to make a new frame. Especially for a product you have been manufacturing for some time. THAT is how modern CNC mills work. And I am completely confident that SIG has either the capability on production machinery, the prototyping capability, or a third party connection, that with the production CNC code, could make a frame. I'm not saying its cost effective or a good business decision and they can and did choose not to do it. But to suggest they don't have the capability is something I'm lost in contemplating. But you have connections at SIG, so maybe I'm missing some key issue so I'll just pass on any further commentary on this issue. SIG has decided to give a new gun and that's where we are. I'm personally disappointed that so close to end of life they have no parts, but so be it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: hrcjon,


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
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Originally posted by 12131:
^^^^^ To be clear, the rattling I'm talking about is the slide-to-frame rattle, analogous to the AR15 upper-lower flopping, and has nothing to do with rounds in magazine rattling.


Ah.

None of mine do that.

.40 and .357 (with some spare 9mm barrels floating around), they've been shot enough to rattle if they're going to...but don't.
 
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Mine are mostly in .40 and have nearly 50K rounds. They rattle like you could use them as a maraca shaker. But the accuracy and reliability has never changed.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 7340 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My 239 does not rattle. Maybe its defective? Big Grin

As far as replacement, I would take the offer on an M11A1 or 229 variant. You can always snag a 239 on the secondary market for short $.
 
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