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So I am a student of the Gun...... Login/Join 
E tan e epi tas
Picture of cslinger
posted
I pride myself on a couple things when it comes to firearms.

1st I am not, nor do I desire, nor have I any fantasies of being a Gun “fighter”. Although I practice and I am fairly capable in a modicum of ways I do not TRAIN!! I shoot for fun with training as a byproduct.

2nd I am fairly capable with everything from BB Guns, to high end air guns to .22s to bolt guns to belt feds to sub guns. I have shot damn near everything this side of 20mm and if it has a trigger and sends a projectile I enjoy it and probably have at least a passing familiarity with it.

With that being said I change up my routines from time to time to stay proficient.....well passable......well at least Safe. Razz. I go through mental/physical exercises. Can I do everything I need with revolvers? How about hammer fired DA/SA, how about all metal etc.

For the last several years I have embraced DA/SA again, my first shooting love. I am comfortable with it and fairly passable....errr not likely to shoot myself.....errr well I probably won’t hurt you.....but I digress. Smile. In that time I have realized my skills with a striker have wained.

So I had recently ordered another HK P30 but the order was cancelled so I took it as a sign and I picked up a shovel......errrr Glock instead. Smile.

I have decided to work on my striker skills for a while since I have met them atrophy a bit. So I took possession of a Gen 5 Glock 19 and I am going to go back to Strikers for a while.

No range review as I only have 150 rounds through the Gen 5 but initial thoughts are super positive. I have always felt the Glock 19 was the “perfect” do all handgun. So far the Gen 5 is reliable, more accurate then I thought I would be with it, and seems to have a way more durable finish then the Gen 4s. At any rate I am going to stretch my striker muscles for a while. It’s been a long time and it is taking some getting used to as I get my Glocks out more.

Couple quick Gen 5 observations.
-the finish is more durable
-the trigger feels the same in dry fire is better live fire. Basically a well broken in Gen 3 IMO.
-no finger grooves works for me, even though grooves “fit” my fingers
-cutout in front of grip was only noticeable when I was shooting and thought.....shouldn’t I be noticing the cutout.
-all Glock mags worked 100%. G19, G17 gen5 and earlier as well as magpul G19.
-the Ameriglo sights are pretty awesome......conversely the XS Big Dots on my Gen 4 17 suck beyond “turn brain off....forget Pistol has rear sight”
-I had my Walther PPS “classic/M1/whatever” out recently and that is a well put together firearm. Probably as tightly toleranced as any plastic pistol I have shot. It’s a wonderful handgun and partially responsible for working on my striker skills again.

So all in all I am digging the Gen 5. I will probably find my way back to DA/SA in a couple years but being a student of the Gun I like to mix it up from time to time and make sure I have skills (read that as won’t kill myself or a bus full of nuns) with every firearm under the sun. So wish me luck as I relearn the Glock trigger.

Like I said I am a student of the Gun. From NERF to BMG.

I might not be the fastest or the most precise but if I need to grab a Nagent revolver or an HK P7 or load a belt into an MG42......by god I can do it. So basically real world I am USELESS. But if the world goes to hell and demon, undead, dragons are attacking your castle....I am your guy. I am your quartermasterSmile

Take care shoot safe,
Chris


"Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man."
 
Posts: 3092 | Location: Nashville, TN | Registered: July 25, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think this is thread 9 in recent weeks. You need one more for a perfect ten in recent weeks Razz

P30, Gen 5 Glock, hard to go wrong with either man. I did just the opposite. After Glocking it twice in recent years....DA/SA is just home. My first pistol was a Glock. It didn’t take 25 ago. And as much I tried to simplify in recent years to Glocks for everything, I missed my hammers. I’m just better with them as I can stage the DA shot so well. I like shooting hammers 10X more, and like the foregiveness of them, the safety of that first long pull. They are my manual transmissions. Take a performance car and it’s offered in manual and a DSG, I’ll take the manual every time because for me, more involvement, more engagement. After jacking with everything under the sun, buying, renting, carrying, etc, polymer DA/SA’s. At least I’ve got off the 357sig tattay after almost 20 years to 9mm. That took a lot of effort. Luckily for me the PX4’s and P30’s aren’t offered in the caliber.

Good luck on your journey. Buy/sell has always worked for me to contain the addiction. I shudder to think of all the pistol boxes I’d have to store if I never sold anything.



We don't sell no g damned trout. T-bone steaks.
 
Posts: 8197 | Registered: January 16, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I don’t sell.......I have boxes to put my boxes in. Smile


"Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man."
 
Posts: 3092 | Location: Nashville, TN | Registered: July 25, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Cslinger, Have you played with red dots on your handguns yet. Just another skill set to work on!


Sigs, HKs, 1911s, Glocks and SW revolvers
 
Posts: 765 | Location: GA | Registered: February 04, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Not yet, besides an aimpoint on a Mark II. Honestly that doesn’t really interest me to this point. Something about the extra bulk. (I know there are tiny options, but still adds a bit of bulk)

I have thought about trying them on an Airgun though Smile


"Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man."
 
Posts: 3092 | Location: Nashville, TN | Registered: July 25, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Now that you're headed back to Glock, they make nice RMR hosts! Once you get used to them it's kind of like cheating. As my eyes and everything else gets older, I like the idea of cheating.


Sigs, HKs, 1911s, Glocks and SW revolvers
 
Posts: 765 | Location: GA | Registered: February 04, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by cslinger:
...
1st I am not, nor do I desire, nor have I any fantasies of being a Gun “fighter”. Although I practice and I am fairly capable in a modicum of ways I do not TRAIN!! I shoot for fun with training as a byproduct.



From a mental perspective, should you ever find yourself in a gun fight, you had better be a "gunfighter," only other choice is "victim" ("shootee?")

Your "I do not train" comment is interesting as well...almost like you see formal "training" as something to avoid and took care to make sure we know you don't? (or am I miss-interpreting?) Care to expand on that?

How have you prepared to deal with shooting in a high stress situation vs. raw marksmanship skill?

-I'm just curious and interested in a discussion...not sharp-shooting you and not an attack (I know forums don't convey that well).




“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik

The world's a dangerous place, we can help! http://portlandfirearmtraining.com/
 
Posts: 3019 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think you are reading too much into it.

Training is great, it’s fun and will absolutely reveal stuff about you under stress (like I couldn’t force myself not to use a slide release even though I kept telling myself to use the gross motor motion).

That being said shooting/firearms are my hobby. I have done “training” and some IDPA stuff but as fun. I don’t see the world through the mindset of “......have a plan to kill everyone in room”. I am observant, try to make smart decisions and am far more practiced then most folks with a firearm.

Who knows what will happen under stress. I know what happens under a BEEP but nothing more. I know I have been flying an aircraft that had a critical failure that I AND (I fat fingered am. Before edit. I am not an instructor)an instructor had to nurse home and know I just worked the problem......and drank heavily hours later.

Am I a well honed, steely eyed, shooting machine? Hell no. I am low speed high drag. I shoot for fun. Hell I am not a firefighter either but I have plenty of fire extinguishers and have had to use one before and I am far more likely to experience a fire.

OF COURSE FORMAL TRAINING IS NOT A BAD OR DISCOURAGED THING. But one can see it as more fun then work.

For me it’s a pastime to be enjoyed with a modicum of training and practice etc. as a byproduct for others it is serious threat management training with a modicum of fun to be had as a byproduct.

I wonder how all those old guys back in the days of ammo costing more then they could afford and had to be rationed managed to protect themselves with “inferior equipment” and not three gunning on their weekends. Wink

Take care shoot safe, TRAIN, and have some fun. Smile

This message has been edited. Last edited by: cslinger,


"Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man."
 
Posts: 3092 | Location: Nashville, TN | Registered: July 25, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by cslinger:
Like I said I am a student of the Gun. From NERF to BMG.

So how good ARE your NERF skills? Big Grin
 
Posts: 2732 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: January 26, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by cslinger:I wonder how all those old guys back in the days of ammo costing more then they could afford and had to be rationed managed to protect themselves with “inferior equipment” and not three gunning on their weekends. Wink


Pretty much the same way we did before widespread shall issue CCW and the same way as 95% of the people in the country still do. They went about their boring lives, engaged in zero gunfights and died of some mundane disease.
 
Posts: 6780 | Location: The Red part of Minnesota | Registered: October 06, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Prefontaine
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Historically, people who haven’t been to operator type courses have protected themselves, or defended themselves against thugs, robberies, home burglaries, etc, pretty well. From old grandma with a revolver or shotgun all the way to younger folks.

On gun forums I see people, often, looking down on others, name dropping x, y, z instructor or IPDA, etc. I’m not saying anyone does that here, but I see it elsewhere. I find this fascinating, as it, to me, is eating our own. Oh you haven’t taken this and this and this course? You’re a buster mentality. It is not just firearms where I see this behavior. I see it at the track on motorcycles or in cars. All of a sudden they’ve done one or two trackdays and now they are experts. They develop a “track only” mindset then try to push that on everyone else. They jump online and say you haven’t spent time at the track then you don’t know to ride or drive shit.
I got tired of it many years ago and tore my lap timers off my bikes and decided to just go, have fun, work on my lines, and skip the competition crap some try to pull. Just go and enjoy, have fun first and foremost.

In the gun world, when I see this occur I want to ask how many real gun fights they’ve been in but I already know the answer most of the time so don’t. You don’t need to do a bunch of HPDE’s to be a good driver anymore than you need to take a bunch of courses to become a proficient pistol shooter. You can draw and dry fire at home until your hands hurt. You can learn on your own, read and practice, and practice some more. Classes are not a requirement, learning, and practice is.
I’m not saying classes are bad, just the opposite, but they aren’t a requirement provided you practice, and learn, get better, etc.

I’ve taken a few classes where I didn’t return to take another. They didn’t teach verbal commands whatsoever. I finally found a local outfit that teaches or emphasizes the low ready, not to sweep anyone, and heavily teaches verbal commands. One of the instructors, who I highly respect, but won’t name drop, is retired LE who has not only been in gun fights, but has drawn many times to diffuse, intimidate, etc. He says he has been in many situations where he drew, but didn’t fire. He is also a proponent of DA/SA, having multiple instances of squeezing then releasing, with no shot fired. Very different from the striker only stuff, one of which I was a participant and got flack for bringing a Sig TDA and should just go buy myself a Glock instead, that was years ago and I didn’t go back. The classes where I participated it was taught if you pull it you’re firing, to which I did not agree. For me any training I take with my own money will be equal parts teaching me not to shoot as it will to shoot, with verbal commands and gestures a heavy part of the course. We live in a litigious society and I want to live first and foremost, but I also want to skip court and all the bs that comes with it if I can. The last thing I ever want to do is fire a round outside of a range. If I can talk my way out of it, or get out of there that’s what I’m doing. That’s always what I was taught in martial arts as well. Do anything and everything you can to not engage, nobody wins a fight.

I agree with cslinger and think his attitude is spot on. The last thing I am is a gunfighter, and I have actually been shot at with a revolver before. One round whizzing right by my right ear, will never forget it. Damn lucky I wasn’t hit. This is a hobby and passion, one I practice at. The beep is a training method for time but real live fire or gunfight it is not. It’s what I would call sim training. Simulation is good, I think some of us have differing opinions on its’ importance.

Myself, I think my own health is way more important than that pistol I’m carrying. Being in shape, with a little bit of muscle...being able to sprint a few city blocks, climb a fence, craw through a small space to escape, having some cardio and weight training fitness, and some flexibility is more important than that pistol in my waistband. Likewise being able to use my hands and legs in a close up encounter to defend myself, as well as a knife as or more important. And with a career, working every day, exercising at the gym every day, a home to take care of, family commitments, a k9 to work, Church, bills, some sort of free time on the weekends to ride or drive, name it....with everything else we have in our busy lives, well 3 gun is out for me. Not interested in games or competing. Life is enough of a competition. No time. Hell if I was going to be a “pro” I’d either be in the gym, on the range in a class, in a martial arts studio in a class, taking more karambit instruction, there would be no more time left for me to enjoy life.
So a class or two a year maybe, and it better fit with my philosophy or I needn’t waste my time and money.



We don't sell no g damned trout. T-bone steaks.
 
Posts: 8197 | Registered: January 16, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I like to shoot a couple dozen USPSA matches a year simply because I enjoy them and I have a few friends there I like to hang out with. This makes me very familiar with handling pistols at speed and under a little pressure (not a gunfighter either, not even close).
I also shoot at a monthly match at my local indoor range. It's fun and I like shooting my compacts there instead of my competition guns but it's lousy with the bearded, molle-clad, tacticool a-holes that can afford a $2500 Glock 19 but aparently not a stick of deodorant.


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"You can do it your own way, if it's done just how I say."
 
Posts: 6569 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Ryanp225:
... but it's lousy with the bearded, molle-clad, tacticool a-holes that can afford a $2500 Glock 19 but aparently not a stick of deodorant.


Well, it's hard to find time to shower when you're training 12 hours a day.


------------------------------
"They who would give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin

"So this is how liberty dies; with thunderous applause."
- Senator Amidala (Star Wars III: Revenge of the Sith)
 
Posts: 945 | Location: Southwest Ohio | Registered: October 07, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It is one thing to be a student of the gun, so long as you don't believe you were born to live by the gun.




The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
 
Posts: 44669 | Location: Texas | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Let me rephrase.

I am a student of the mechanics, physics and history of the Gun.

AND I WILL PUT YOU DOWN WITH A NERF PISTOL!!!! Mad BEEEPPPPP!!!! whhhooooshh. Smile


"Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man."
 
Posts: 3092 | Location: Nashville, TN | Registered: July 25, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well, if you get into a gunfight, you had better be a "gunfighter" in that moment and end it.

Offhand, I think I see more denegration/minimization of training as "tacticool", "commando" "wanna-be" etc. on forums than the opposite; people getting made fun of for not having any.

While it is true many people with no training successfully defend themselves...that is way more due to the criminals deciding to retreat than the citizen out-fighting them.

Here is a statistic we'll never know; how many victims were also gun owners who never got a chance to get their guns? It isn't like that would be reported...so-and-so had a gun in the closet but got beat into the ICU by a home invader before they could grab it. It would just be a headline about a brutal home invasion beating.

There are tons of violent crime victims...how many more would have survived if they had training? We only read about the success stories in "the armed citizen" column...

Anyway I appreciate the answers cslinger, I figured I was reading into it too much.




“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik

The world's a dangerous place, we can help! http://portlandfirearmtraining.com/
 
Posts: 3019 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I spent a little bit of time in emergency communications, 911, law enforcement dispatching etc.

I can speak to numerous cases of folks who were of the I bought a gun, threw it in a nightstand and never touched it until I needed it successfully defending themselves. As well as a couple bad ass little old lady’s who put folks down.

I can also speak to folks who were well trained professionals who lost the fight or their lives due to ambush/Murphy or Lady Luck being a fickle bitch.

Training and preparing and taking all the classes you can get or desire is NEVER a bad thing. Just keep in mind that even the best of the best get killed every day.

In my experience, however limited and anecdotal but generally greater then the general public the single most important element we saw in terms of successful self defense was having a firearm, any firearm. In the great, great majority of incidents the simple show of force or ability to fight back drove most off right quick. The cases where there was a higher likelyhood of violence usually were crime on crime.

Now that doesn’t mean that being a born, bred and trained warrior will not one day help you prevail, it sure as hell won’t hurt, but in what I have seen real world a little old lady with a .357 is a force to be reckoned with.

I think part of the reason for the lashing out at the high speed low drag tactibro is less about the training and more about the image. In my opinion the world needs quiet professionals and normal everyday folks as gun owners. Granny, your priest, the Starbucks barista, the cube monkey etc. these are the folks that set the world at ease and say to those around, sure Sally carries a gun but she is perfectly normal, just like me. M

People see the tactical crowd, the have a plan to kill everybody you meet folks as Gecko45s at best and scary ass trigger happy folks waiting for the chance to put somebody down (true or not, perception is truth). Those folks scare people and are counter productive to gun rights. Again right or wrong.

I have known straight A folks, who would give you the shirt off their backs and lived the golden rule all day everyday but dressed like a gangbanger......guess what most folks thought of them.

So no training is not bad. Mindset is CERTAINLY not bad. But some folks go about it in a way that scares the bejezzus out of folks because they simply cannot relate to them.

I would NEVER tell somebody how to live their life and certainly not how to train or handle a firearm or any weapon beyond safe handling so please don’t take this as judging. It’s just a series of personal observations from my life. As always YMMV and let’s face it I am just a damn idiot on the interwebz so I only speak for myself.

As always take care, shoot safe.


"Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man."
 
Posts: 3092 | Location: Nashville, TN | Registered: July 25, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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the Glock 19 was the “perfect” do all handgun

That'll be the Glock 17.

Smile


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Knowing more by accident than on purpose.
 
Posts: 13968 | Location: Tampa, Florida | Registered: December 12, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by cslinger:
In my experience, however limited and anecdotal but generally greater then the general public the single most important element we saw in terms of successful self defense was having a firearm, any firearm.


You are confusing luck with a predisposed outcome. The rooster crows, the sun comes up, therefore the rooster had to make the sun come up.

That's as foolish, and reckless as the tactical Ted crowd.


_______________________________________________________________________
www.opspectraining.com

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 30891 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Instructors usually come from three venues Competition/Sport, Law-Enforcement and or Military. Then you have your subcategories of training methodology with examples of sighted and or threat focused shooting.The differences go on and on. As a counter to that is the "The Armed Citizen" column put forth by the NRA Publications. The willingness to be combative trumps methodology.
 
Posts: 828 | Registered: October 09, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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