quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Prefontaine:
I highly respect them, but back then, even today, the end result is no better than your average Glock to me. And I say that as a previous and current owner.

I can't fault a bit of what you say because it is all accurate. I will have to differ with you on the technical aspects of this. The thing that I see that HK does way better than Glock, the M&P line, the 320, and even the P-Series guns. Out of the box they all will perform the same, do the same job if you will. In 20,000, the HK does it better. It is a tolerance and parts quality difference. Well, that and when is the last time you have seen HK do a product recall, or "voluntary safety upgrade"?

Do you have reduced reset work on your P30's?

They R&D the crap out of their guns. What did the p30 do 90,000 rounds without a stoppage? That’s saying something.

Their durability is legendary but again purely as a weapon for an average user the extra cost is really diminishing returns.

Now, however with them being 100-150 more or in the same ballpark as a Comparable Glock they are a very attractive option.

For me personally they offer me a great many features as well as aesthetics that work for me. At the end of the day I wanted to go back to DA/SA hammer fired and frankly I wanted a hammer fired Glock 19/23 so the obvious choice was a P2000, which also feels great to me. I have pretty much gone all HK for my “working” guns if you will and have no regrets.

I am a little torqued that with this price decrease they are letting in the unwashed masses and even those gauche Glock people. I say I paid extra for my HK snobbery and dammit I am not happy about losing it. .

....says the guy with 4 Glocks....CZs.....Rugers......

It is interesting how the original USP line which is still in sporadic production haven’t come down in price.

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:

What did the p30 do 90,000 rounds without a stoppage?

Never heard of this.

It was something like 91,000 rounds in 5 or 6 months with 5 or 6 magazines. IIRC at the end a sliver of the frame caused some kind of issue. I believe the Gun was still serviceable at the end.

Basically it saw quite bit of compressed life cycle of shooting and ran and ran.

Not like Glock 17s don’t run for a bazillion rounds but they tend to require more frequent springs etc.

quote:

Originally posted by YVK:

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:

What did the p30 do 90,000 rounds without a stoppage?

Never heard of this.

Todd Green (RIP) did a test of the P30. You can find it at pistol-training.com under "P30 Thursday"

Yes the P30 went 91,000 rounds but there were 13 stoppages which still is impressive. I found the HK45 endurance test a bit more impressive though as it did go over 31,000 rounds before a stoppage. The RSA design on the hammer fired HK pistols is designed for 20,000 rounds durability I believe.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/2668

"91,322 rounds
13 stoppages, 0 malfunctions, 5 parts breakages

test ended at: 91,622 rounds

At 91,300 rounds, the P30 was running strong. Even after a chunk went missing from the frame, the gun had turned in well over five thousand rounds of accurate and reliable service. I carried it every day.

By 91,322 however, the pistol had suffered three stovepipe stoppages. In the course of those twenty-two rounds, the P30 — hot, broken, and abused — finally skipped a beat. Something clearly wasn’t right. So on Monday, the pistol got packed up and sent to HK’s Sam Bass for a detailed inspection. Sam has been the go-to guy for every technical issue and question during this project, and if anyone was going to get to the bottom of this, it was him." More at link above.


HK 45 50,000 round endurance test.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/4027

"50,000 rounds
1 stoppages 1 (*) malfunctions 1 parts breakages (a spring)

50,000 rounds in just over eight months.

And yes, as many of you have guessed, that is Larry “LAV” Vickers himself shooting #50,000. It seemed only fitting that the man most responsible for the HK45’s existence be there at the end of this incredible test.

Over the course of the entire test, just one single spring broke. The gun is still perfectly reliable and suitable for daily use. Now my wrists and elbows, on the other hand…" More at link above.

OK, I understand now. You're talking about Todd Green's P30 test. I am familiar with it, I actually shot that pistol at around 90K, already after that piece of frame broke off.
That was 91,000+ some rounds. Depending on how you look at it, there were three, ten, or thirteen stoppages, Todd reporting the latter as a final number. There was about half dozen part breakages, I believe springs. So yeah, pretty awesome performance but not 90000 without a stoppage.

quote:

Originally posted by YVK:
OK, I understand now. You're talking about Todd Green's P30 test. I am familiar with it, I actually shot that pistol at around 90K, already after that piece of frame broke off.
That was 91,000+ some rounds. Depending on how you look at it, there were three, ten, or thirteen stoppages, Todd reporting the latter as a final number. There was about half dozen part breakages, I believe springs. So yeah, pretty awesome performance but not 90000 without a stoppage.

Yup my bad on that. I’m impressed with the HK45 only being cleaned every 10k rounds!

I've always wanted a P30, the price has always turned me away.

But I just snagged one under 600 new. So thanks for the heads up fellas.

These tests would have been more meaningful (for me) if he let the guns run until they failed. It's my understanding, some of the parts most prone to break were replaced at regular intervals.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Prefontaine:
I highly respect them, but back then, even today, the end result is no better than your average Glock to me. And I say that as a previous and current owner.

I can't fault a bit of what you say because it is all accurate. I will have to differ with you on the technical aspects of this. The thing that I see that HK does way better than Glock, the M&P line, the 320, and even the P-Series guns. Out of the box they all will perform the same, do the same job if you will. In 20,000, the HK does it better. It is a tolerance and parts quality difference. Well, that and when is the last time you have seen HK do a product recall, or "voluntary safety upgrade"?

Do you have reduced reset work on your P30's?

I agree with you on the longevity, lack of recall etc, 100%. I’ve never doubted that. They test their stuff like nobody else, so the customers don’t have to, so I never minded the delays on product release, actually the opposite, appreciated them so much more for it. But old pricing, I could and did buy a Swiss made pistol with better internals and tolerances, for $100 less than a P30 which is why I never bought a P30 prior to new pricing. Same capacity, better parts, and a trigger that HK couldn’t even be invited to sit at the dinner table with. Just pistol to pistol there, the importer to what I’m referring to, well another matter. I guess I’m trying to say just a bit overpriced in my humble opinion. Something I’m happy to see currently addressed. It will help them tremendously. FWIW, I think a P30 is worth $700. $900 and some change not so much. The P30sk I have is my second and I believe they priced it excellently from the off. FWIW, owned the P2000 and P2000sk prior, both in 357/40 and still consider either or both to be the best “carry” 357’s ever produced by anyone. Weight/recoil/capacity was perfect for that caliber. And like you said they are reliable as F. But I think all the major players are making good stuff right now. A whole lot of platforms I could say are reliable. Glocks use far fewer parts and your average owner isn’t a trainer that is going to get to 20k through it. No offense sir with that statement, just some truth.

As far as smith work, yup reset reduced. But that’s a side benefit to my problem with at least the P30/sk, it’s the DA pull. Due to the length of travel and # I damn near have to adjust my grip to get the DA shot off with some sort of resemblance to accuracy. A whole lot of work, or more than I prefer. After quality smith work, I get a trigger that makes me respect the pistol so much more. And it’s no competition stuff, 9#/4#. Reset reduction is about a third but I never had any big issue with the stock reset. It was the DA pull and travel length. And I’m honest, in stock configuration they would not be in my safe, at least the V3, the light LEM is f’ing fantastic stock, I just prefer the DA/SA and have quit that battle, I lost. Worked over V3’s, mjolnir. They carry very well, have some of the best pistol magazines made, I prefer the paddles, grip is second to none, and the main thing and why I own them, gloved work. HK makes large trigger guards, something they and CZ (and they’re variants) only seem to get. I use gloves, some thin, some quite large. Weightlifting gloves, padded and armored motorcycle gloves, large winter gloves for outdoor work when it is in the teens here, gloves for garage/motor work and maintenance, yard work, and especially K9 work. Used to get 1st degree burns doing k9 work with the GSD’s or Mal’s doing drills so even if it’s 102 outside I’ve got gloves on. I tend to protect my hands at all times because I can’t get another pair of them and I have eczema that I don’t have to deal with at all if I protect my hands. That large trigger guard actually means something to me.

My only bitch with the platform is the stock DA/SA and used to feel they were a bit overpriced. Please don’t mistake my critique for hate because it’s anything but. I had one on me all day and will have one on me most of the time until March when it gets warm.

Cool.

While I've read all about HKs customer service and the "we hate you and you suck!" stuff I personally think HKs customer service is the best in the business. Why? Because in 23 years of using HK products, I have never needed to call them. Not once.

I prefer the quality be built in the handgun. Not in the return shipping experience. And I am willing to pay a little more to get it. Although I am down to my original USP 45 with KF date code (and it will never be for sale till I am dead) I never paid over $600 for any of my HK handguns. And several of my HK USP 45C pistols were NIB.

It pays to shop around.

If HK would make a really compact single stack TDA 45, I would sell all my other pistols - except for the USP 45. I shit you not. Fine guns. Regards 18DAI

Wish they would put out a CM9/PM9 sized LEM gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
I’m not a huge fan of the stock sights on the 45c. I just prefer a narrower front sight. I think I will order some Heinie S8’s. Fired 100 rounds zero issues with cheapo federal aluminum cased 230gr.

10 yards unsupported



At 15 yards unsupported the groups opened up a bit



I think I am going to order the Variant 10 detent plate to convert it to Safety only, no decock because I like to ride the safety and don’t want to decock the gun under recoil.

I changed that out on my HK USPc45. I think it is V9 detent plate though.

quote:

Originally posted by WARPIG602:
Wish they would put out a CM9/PM9 sized LEM gun.

It will come. They recently asked what HK customers thought and wanted publicly iirc. This is just my gut but.....But the best selling pistols on the market for all mfr’s are the conceal pistols and that’s single stack 9s. I would not be surprised if HK is working on a VP9 single stack striker pistol to compete with the 43, Shield, Sig’s new offering, etc. I highly doubt it would be a hammer though. But that’s just my lame opinion.

They make a damn nice pistol. I've had an HK45C, a P30, and have a VP9 now. Loved them all.

Now Sig needs a similar price drop, especially on the P225A1

I’m a weak man. I went back to the gun show and picked up a P2000SK 9mm DA/SA for $535.

quote:

Originally posted by 18DAI:
While I've read all about HKs customer service and the "we hate you and you suck!" stuff I personally think HKs customer service is the best in the business. Why? Because in 23 years of using HK products, I have never needed to call them. Not once.

I prefer the quality be built in the handgun. Not in the return shipping experience. And I am willing to pay a little more to get it. Although I am down to my original USP 45 with KF date code (and it will never be for sale till I am dead) I never paid over $600 for any of my HK handguns. And several of my HK USP 45C pistols were NIB.

It pays to shop around.

If HK would make a really compact single stack TDA 45, I would sell all my other pistols - except for the USP 45. I shit you not. Fine guns. Regards 18DAI

There service is fantastic, if you ever have to use it. I've only used it for sight installation and to have a thread protector taken off a gun I bought that I couldn't get off. They took it off, smoothed the trigger, put a new thread protector on and sent it back to me for no charge. Admittedly, I am an hk fanboy, owning 12, but for me they are the best guns and I really like the company and service. I own many SIG's, a few cz's and a few glocks, but the Hk's are my favorite and can be shot very, very well if you do your part.