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Duty Gun shootout: SIG vs. HK Login/Join 
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With target pics:










- Pistols are all 9mm.

- Ammo was all 115gr....Magtech for the P30 and P229, PMC for the P30L and SP2022 (shot these on different days and used what I had at the time).

- HKs are both V3 (DA/SA), LE models with night sights.

- P229 is circa 2009, SP2022 is 2016, both HKs are 2018 manufacture.

- No real mods to the pistols save for the 229 which has a GrayGuns Super Black guide rod and G10 Hogue grips.

- SIGs have been sighted in and adjusted many moons ago, HKs are still being tweaked to perfection and aren't there yet (P30 shoots right, P30L shoots left).



Observations:

Really interesting taking time to shoot these back to back. I'm trying to settle on a platform, and while I love my SP2022 and have a bond with my 229, I wanted to give the HKs a fair shake. Different feel for sure amongst the three, but all have their pros/cons.

229: More of wave/roll on the recoil impulse compared to the others. Bar/Dot sights, which I love, and it seemed the dot just popped back on top of the bar once the slide was back in battery. Boink. There. Accuracy was good,though those sights are lacking, for me, once you get to 25yds...HDs or something similar would be better. 15yds and in, though, I prefer these bar/dots over any sight I've ever used. Shots to the upper left are at 25, of course. At first I thought the guy next to me put those there, but then I remembered I was by myself at the range. The 229 seemed to shift in my hands a bit more than the HKs...required more of a conscious effort to avoid milking the grip. Best trigger of the bunch in terms of pull and reset. Best SA of the bunch as well. Just a smooth, sweet shooter. Gun to my head and say I have to live with this one only, and I'd not complain.

SP2022: Smoothest trigger of the bunch...if pull was shorter it'd best the 229 by far. Kind of a tie though with the 229 as the 229 had the shorter pull, reset, and SA break. The 2022 rolled like the 229 and again required more focus to avoid milking when compared to the HKs, but had a tiny bit more flip than the 229. Sights popped back similar to the 229 but the front sight had a bit more side to side/rotational movement in my hands. A very smooth shooter. I know this is the red-headed step-child of SIG pistols but I can't seem to give it up. Slide didn't lock back for me but that was my right thumb's fault as it gave me an "F-U" and rode the slide lock even though I told it not to. This is more of a problem for me with the 2022 than even the P30 line, and the P30 line is supposed to be one of the pesky lines in this regard yet I had no issues with the HKs either yesterday or today. Whatevs. Accuracy was good with the stock three-dot contrast sights, but I noticed that this seemed to open up for me past 15 yds and wasn't as tight inside of 15 as the 229 was. Ignore the 25 round notation on the target...should only be 15, but I only slept for about three hours before doing this and math is hard.

HK P30: Regular one...DA/SA V3, LE...roughest trigger but the newest, but it's already breaking in/smoothing out/lightening up with dry-fire and use so I have high hopes. Seemed to string more vertical than the others, which is odd as in the past the bar-dot SIGs have strung the most vertical for me, which I don't mind, but seem to do better with three-dots in general. These HK sights (Ameriglo?) are nice...like a stock Glock night sight but taller, which I prefer as the longer light bars help me put the front sight back in place easier and faster. At first this pistol was bugging my trigger finger...stupid trigger guard trough was being forced into the first (or third? the distal one...)knuckle of my trigger finger under recoil and while not "painful" it wasn't particularly comfortable either. However today I didn't notice it as much, which is odd, so I wager I'm adjusting my grip somehow or just getting used to the pistol. At first this "poke" was going to be a deal-breaker for me, but then I read up on how some people just sand it down slightly and all is good, so I kept my mind open here. The recoil impulse wasn't as "rolly" as the 229 or 2022...more of a push back and then back on target. Front sight didn't snap back into place like the 229, but it was close. I can see how this pistol with a TLR-7 or similar on the front end would be a dandy all-around alternative to the ubiquitous Glock 19, for people like me who prefer DA/SA. That was my hope, at least, and looks to be a possibility. Doesn't shift in hand like the 229 or 2022...easier for me to lock my hands in and just pull the trigger, and likely in large part the result of the grip design. I'm running the small backstrap and the large side panels on both this and the L version. Good overall throughout the range...outside/upper shots are at the 25 but I'm still getting used to where these sights put rounds as you back up. Shooting pace for all these guns was a "qual" pace...nothing lazy, but not high-speed either.

HK P30L: Same as the other P30 but the "L" version. Picked it up and it was love at first touch. Still prefer it in hand over the regular P30, but the front sight movement is different. The L has a bit more play/wobble under recoil while the sight is settling back in the groove. Not a bad thing necessarily, and I wager it'd be reduced with a TLR-1 on the front end, but an observation nonetheless. Kinda like how a Glock 17 behaves compared to a 19...more sight radius, but a more "nosey" gun. Locks in-hand just dandy like the non-L, and has a slower recoil vibe...not as quick as the non-L, but less flip than the non-L (not that the non-L was flippy, just that the L has a smoother/softer recoil impulse). Again only 15 rounds for this one...put 25 because I was thinking of yesterday when I shot 25 each through the 229 and P30....had to conserve ammo today because I wanted to focus on both accuracy and overall feel in separate strings and only had 100 rounds of 9mm with me tonight.

Anyhoo...I was going into tonight ready to ditch HK (what a fickle bastard I am!) due to a) how smooth and accurate the P229 was for me yesterday, and b) how the P30's stupid finger-groove-for-tactical-gloved-operators was poking my trigger finger, but putting 100 total rounds through all four pistols tonight in the course of a half-hour helped. What's pushing me toward HK is 1) how they lock in better and don't shift in hand really at all compared to my two SIGs and 2) how the stupid trigger guard poke wasn't as pesky and could be mitigated through practice and/or some artful sanding if necessary. My interactions with HK customer service have been excellent (no, seriously, they have been great) so that's another concern struck down, and my impression with the P30 line is that it's well designed, well built, and has the potential for Glock-like longevity.

Open to the collective wisdom here, of course, but unless something grand changes my mind I think I'm going to settle down on the P30 line as my #1 platform for work and play.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: dehughes,


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Posts: 806 | Location: Oregon | Registered: March 18, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm curious about your description of the wave/roll on recoil impulse and what they describes for you in more detail.

Do you consider this endemic to the design of the gun, perhaps the notorious "high bore axis" or the length of the slide, something like that, for Sigs or might it be the way you handle the gun, grip and so on?
 
Posts: 17085 | Location: Northern Vermont | Registered: September 20, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Two of my all time favorite da/sa pistols ever are the 229 and p30. I’ve had my 229 for about 12 years and it was one of the first pistols I owned. I’ve bought and sold many since then but I’ll never part with it. I’ve never come across a gun I shoot as well until I got a p30sk. My 229 has a better trigger by far, especially after I put a few Bruce gray upgrades in it but even though the p30sk trigger feels like a staple gun to me I just always shoot really well with it. If I was going to choose between the 2 for a duty gun, in 9mm it would be the p30. It’s lighter and I prefer the trigger guard mag release.
I wouldn’t carry the p30L either, I carried an M9 when I was an MP and that big ass beretta always rode up when I sat in the car when the muzzle of the holster hit the raised edge of the car seat and sometimes seat belt. I would have killed for a plastic duty gun with a 4in. barrel
 
Posts: 2526 | Registered: December 06, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The only issue keeping me declaring the P30(L) as my primary pistol is the fact that it is not very RDS friendly. It can be done but is much more expensive to mill than most other pistol brands. At my age and eye sight the RDS is becoming a necessity.

... and I prefer the paddle style magazine release ...
 
Posts: 1257 | Location: Texas Hill Country | Registered: January 24, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by SIGWolf:
I'm curious about your description of the wave/roll on recoil impulse and what they describes for you in more detail.

Do you consider this endemic to the design of the gun, perhaps the notorious "high bore axis" or the length of the slide, something like that, for Sigs or might it be the way you handle the gun, grip and so on?


This applies to the 229 and to a lesser extent to the 2022...it feels like the slide has more mass and sits higher than the P30 series, so when under recoil as it moves, it is further away from the fixed point that is the center of your palm in line with your wrist, you're naturally going to experience a wider "arc". I could draw this to help illustrate, but you can visualize a greater mass reciprocating across the top of a slide, and then imagine that greater mass being "taller" and how that would naturally create more of an arc if you drew straight lines connecting the front/back of the mass down to the center of your palm. That's how it feels...picture a folding paper fan or the sweep of a single windshield wiper to help with the imagery.

I can speculate as to the "why" of what I feel under recoil, but I can't say for sure. I'll leave that to the guys who really know pistol engineering.

Regardless, I notice this more with the 229/2022 than either of the P30s.

That said, I woke up this morning with a fresher mind, and upon reflection I must admit I LIKED shooting the P229 more than any of the others, even though I can articulate why the P30 series is a better choice at this point. Stupid feelings always complicating things. I'll grab more ammo and take the pistols back tonight and shoot them with the TLR-1 and see if that changes things.


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Posts: 806 | Location: Oregon | Registered: March 18, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I am an Hk and SIG fanboy. I have 4 p30's, 2L's, 1 regular and the SK and many other Hk's. I have one 229 and multiple 226's. If I had to choose one platform to live with it would be very hard not to pick the p30's. I find their recoil/muzzle flip to be minimal, accuracy is incredible, reliability is great (although the L's did need a bit of a break in) grips are perfect, and they are very robust and durable pistols. The trigger is not great, especially compared to a SIG with the short reset trigger. However, it can be shot very well an pretty quickly with practice. I would be just as happy if I could only have the 226/229/224 series. Luckily I can have both.


p229Extreme/P226Tac-Ops/P226 Extreme/P226 SAO) P226 X-5 Blue Moon/P226 X-5 Black and White

 
Posts: 705 | Registered: March 16, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Went and spent more time with the four tonight, but with a TLR-1 and with less focus on accuracy and more focus on recoil impulse and feel-in-hand.

Hard to not go with HK. Even with the light attached, the SP2022 moved around most out of the four with the P229 a close second. Interestingly, the HKs felt nearly as good without the light as the SIGs did with the light. Regardless though, the HKs just stayed put in hand whereas I had to focus on keeping a grip on the SIGs. Yes, the HKs triggers are reminiscent of a staple gun, but they shoot just fine.

Sight tracking was very similar between the HKs and the P229...the P30 was a little more jumpy than the P229, but the ergos are so good that with a little focus I could run the P30 like the P229. The P30L is my favorite though...it's a wonderful little pistol and just WORKS for me.

Now I want to throw a VP9 into the mix and see if its ergos might make it the first striker-fired pistol I actually want to own. Hmm...


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Posts: 806 | Location: Oregon | Registered: March 18, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yes, the HKs triggers are reminiscent of a staple gun, but they shoot just fine.


They aren’t that bad. I have found my P30 and P2Ks to be perfectly adequate triggers. Nothing to write home about but not terrible. Certainly not up to the SIGs of course.

My HK45C has a terrible DA pull, however.


"Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man."
 
Posts: 3707 | Location: Nashville, TN | Registered: July 25, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by dehughes:
Now I want to throw a VP9 into the mix and see if its ergos might make it the first striker-fired pistol I actually want to own. Hmm...


This is how I ended up with my VP9. Love the gun. Still carry my P30sk but the VP9 has made its way to my fun gun for USPSA-ish shooting at my local club.



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Posts: 4262 | Location: Willow Park, TX | Registered: April 14, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Does the department have specs on what can be carried? I started day one with a revolver in 6 inch and ended many years later with a S&W 4013TSW. I got out long before the 320 came along but that would have been my choice as I was permitted to carry anything in 9 or 40.

Guess as I departed we tightened the specs to only one duty handgun, the Glock 23. Not a fan but the size does allow on and off duty carry much more so than the older 5906 or 4006.

If they don't care, go with what works best for you. A secondary consideration is finding a suitable quality duty holster.


Richard Scalzo
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Posts: 4934 | Location: Epping, NH | Registered: October 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I had another thread about this, but yeah, work is (slowly) pushing policy change up the chain which will open things up for other calibers and manufacturers if you buy your own pistol. Was leaning P-Series SIG until I picked up this stupid HK P30L; have P229 and SP2022 up for sale locally, now... Frown Germans: 1, Swiss: 0


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Posts: 806 | Location: Oregon | Registered: March 18, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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