I have an Ultra in .45 and it is a fine pistol. External extractors are a non-issue for me. I prefer my P220 SAO Legion for a SAO, because I like a full size pistol, but would not be averse to carrying this little 1911. A Springfield Armory Professional 1911 is on my wish list just because

I read that a Mercedes GT R is a pretty impressive sports car. But, it is somewhat atypical for MB’s perceived image / brand. Within AMG-tuned Mercedes, it has hefty sales competition from the AMG sedans, which better align with the brand. Within the market for pure sports cars, it has hefty competition from Porsche, McLaren, etc.

Within the family of Sig enthusiasts, the Sig 1911 has hefty comp from the 220. Beyond the brand loyalists, it stands as one of many 1911 variants and somewhat lacks the pedigree re 1911’s.

I’m not suggesting that the above reasoning is appropriate, but I do think it is contributing to the limited popularity.

I love 1911s. I've come to the conclusion recently that I could probably go though life only owning two models of handgun and have all my needs covered...1911s for range fun, and P320s for work/carry.

The thing about the 1911 for me is the combination of nostalgia, aesthetics, and shoot-ability.

- I like a traditional barrel bushing and guide-rod setup...there's just something about taking the gun apart the way that JMB intended that I enjoy.
- I like an internal extractor because it's easier to service and tune if necessary, and it just looks better.
- I like a "series 70" trigger, because that's the way the gun was designed, and in my experience, all else being equal, fewer parts makes for a simpler, crisper trigger...not to mention fewer parts to maintain.

I was recently in the market for a 1911, and I spent a lot of time searching the internet for details on what I wanted. I looked at the Sigs, but I couldn't get past the goofy slide profiles (potential holster compatibility issues) and the "series 80" internals (the real deal-breaker). Another minor point that didn't make the decision for me, but didn't help thier case...Sig also has some really goofy marketing going on with their 1911 line that cost them some credibility with me. The "Emperor Scorpion" and "Nightmare" nonsense just comes off as cheesy to me (and brings to mind this really awful CGI rendering of The Rock every time I hear it:
).

I ended up with a stainless Springfield Loaded, and changed out the guide rod for a GI spec one. I know we're all supposed to hate SA, but the gun had almost everything I wanted (and all of the really important stuff) at a price point that I couldn't beat anywhere else. I've got about 2500 rounds through it now, and have had a total of 4 FTFs, and those were in the first hundred rounds (break in). The only other issue I've had is that the gun was shooting high, and SA sent me a new rear sight to correct the problem, no questions asked. I have no regrets about the purchase, and I love the gun.

Long story short, I think the Sig 1911 is a marketing failure more than it is a failure as a firearm. They are so busy coming up with goofy names, fancy finishes, and off-spec slide profiles geared towards a non-traditional crowd that they've alienated the portion of the market that is attracted to 1911s in the first place...traditionalists. Add to that the implementation of MIM parts and the external extractor and there's really not anything left to set them apart in a market flooded with mid-range 1911 offerings.

The non-standard slide profile put a lot of people off. It's a 1911 but it may not fit in a 1911 holster. I think they got a little too gimmicky with Scorpions, Emperors and Nightmares.

That said I've got a C3 that I for a while was my main carry gun. Commander length slide so none of the issues with the shorter slide lengths. Officer length grip frame for better conceivability. Still have it, still carry it from time to time. The only reason I don't carry it more is I now have a Colt Defender that has been trouble free and makes for a smaller lighter package.

quote:

Originally posted by 2000Z-71:
The non-standard slide profile put a lot of people off. It's a 1911 but it may not fit in a 1911 holster. I think they got a little too gimmicky with Scorpions, Emperors and Nightmares.

That said I've got a C3 that I for a while was my main carry gun. Commander length slide so none of the issues with the shorter slide lengths. Officer length grip frame for better conceivability. Still have it, still carry it from time to time. The only reason I don't carry it more is I now have a Colt Defender that has been trouble free and makes for a smaller lighter package.

I used to carry my C3 also but like you I wanted a smaller and lighter carry gun. I too, bought a Defender and I never could make it reliable enough for carry use and that's why I picked up a Sig Ultra. Because of age related issues I no longer carry either of them. I'm now carrying a P938 and it's perfect for my needs.

Jim

I am not keen on the external extractor, just an aesthetic opinion that I have. Any 1911 I buy won’t have one, again personal preference not necessarily a criticism of the external extractor’s reliability itself.

1911s aren't why I go to Sig, and the only way I'd own one is if you gave it to me. The external extractor is no biggy.

For me it's the ugly slide profile, and the fact that Sig never made 1911s. If I want a product with no history I'll buy a Springfield Armory. That's just a name slapped on a 1911 too. They're only making them to get a taste of the market. Feh.

I won't be buying a Mossberg 1911 either. Or Beretta, or whoever

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by x0225095:

quote:

Originally posted by tgmr05:
The sigs are nice. They have different parts and some have different dimensions that require different holsters. The 1911 is one of the very few handguns that have a plethora of manufacturers and parts. Some are milspec/standard and fit most 1911s, and some models aka the sig and others, use some of their own proprietary parts and dimensions. Hence they are not as popular. Why buy an off spec or non standard 1911? Unless it is so super bad awesome that milspec folks all switch over, it is basically a niche non standard/spec 1911 with a much smaller market base.

Not bashing the sig, just explaining the reality. Smith has an external extractor and kimber has made some. Simply has not become the standard, as of yet, and most likely never will.

^^^ All of this ^^^

S&W 1911 has the external extractor but everything else is basically 1911.

But the SIG....oh boy

Also the earlier ones had different slide dimensions on all of them and none of them would fit any of the normally available holsters. So most people saw them as a copy of a 1911 but not a 1911.

I have a S+W 1911, it's a nice looking gun. It sheered the slide stop in the first 200 rounds. I put another one in it and it sheered that one in less than 200 rounds. I think the barrel link was off or something, I sent it to S+W, they paid shipping both ways, cleaned up the trigger which was pretty good to start...… (I put a note in there asking how much to do a trigger job on it), the gunsmith called me up and said there's not much we can do with the trigger, I just measured it and it's 3.5 lbs and he kind of chuckled (it wasn't before I sent it), they also put nice wood grips in the box and sent it back and it's been fine. It's a nice looking gun, but for some reason my Colts just feel better shooting them and it sits in my safe and I haven't shot it in at least 5-7 years. I usually grab my Ed Brown kobra for .45 (My WC sits in the safe too) and my Colt Competition when I want to shoot 9mm.

I haven’t sold many of my 1911’s but the only one I ever regret selling was my S&W 1911. It ran like a top.

quote:

Long story short, I think the Sig 1911 is a marketing failure more than it is a failure as a firearm. They are so busy coming up with goofy names, fancy finishes, and off-spec slide profiles geared towards a non-traditional crowd that they've alienated the portion of the market that is attracted to 1911s in the first place...traditionalists. Add to that the implementation of MIM parts and the external extractor and there's really not anything left to set them apart in a market flooded with mid-range 1911 offerings.

Reading the thread; considering if I had anything of value to add, I realized I didn't when I got to this post. You nailed each and every point I would have brought up. Perfect summary!

Your purist or traditionalist is going to buy a Colt.

Your feature or performance guy will get a Kimber or SA.

Your cost-limited buyer will get a Rock Island or ATI, etc.

Your heavy shooters will get a Smith and Wesson.

Your upmarket buyers are thinking DW, Brown, etc.

Your competition guys will scoff at whatever you have on the shelf, so they don't matter.

So where does the Sig fit in? They already made the best 1911 they possibly could, and it's called the P220. Make that. More of that. And less of the non-traditional nonsense and hipster douche bag named bar b que guns.

I guess there's an ass for every seat, but I think Sig's forte lies outside the 1911 market.

I wish Sig would concentrate more on TDA P series guns like the 220.

We sell 6 TDA P series guns to every 1 Sig 1911.

And we sell 20 P365s to every TDA P series guns.

Sadly, most buyers today want less expensive tiny guns that are plastic and striker fired. Regards 18DAI

I've got a 1911 TTT and it is just frikkin' Sweet !
My P220 stainless Elite ain't bad either.
I'm a sigaholic. Got a bunch.

I think many are turned off by:

Sig-style slide

Series 80

Lack of marketing compared to Kimber. Kimber's heavy marketing raises the perception of Kimber as a quality 1911.

My C3

quote:

Originally posted by 18DAI:
Working in a high end LGS, which is a Sig Master dealer, I have noticed that the Sig 1911s don't move. While I am not a 1911 fan, these Sig 1911s seem well built and reasonably priced. Especially when you compare them to Kimbers.

The C3 is a pistol that tempts me to use a 1911 again.

So what is it? Is it the external extractor? The integral rails? Why are these very nice 1911s not more popular? Regards 18DAI

Everyone makes 1911s. Not everyone makes SIGs, and by 'SIGs', I mean classic P-series pistols.

When I think of SIG pistols, just about the last thing I think of is the 1911.

For me it's mostly the Series 80 trigger. S&W's grip safety actuated firing pin block is the best design I've seen - all the benefits of the FPS for drop safety and the rare possibility of hammer hook or sear failure - with no effect on the trigger.

Then there's the lack of ambi safeties on some models (I'm left handed), and all the weird variations. The slide profile doesn't bother me too much, since I wouldn't really carry the thing. If they did a Legion 1911 with all the Legion upgrades, I might consider it, since I like SAO Legions. Can't figure out why they haven't done one yet...

I had purchased a SIG GSR 1911 in about 2004. It was a malfunctioning machine. It couldn't get through one magazine without a stoppage. I sent it back four times for repair. The last time SIG sent me a refund for what I paid. With that refund I purchased a Colt 1911 and never had a problem.

What Para said. I grew up on the classic P series SIG. For me that's my only SIG pistol.

When I hear 1911, Kimber first comes to mind.

My sig 45 Nightmare, bobtail, 4.25inch barrel, has an ugly extractor and can’t fit into my other comparably sized holsters, but boy!!! Does it shoot well. With my eyes closed, I can’t tell if I am holding and shooting an Ed Brown or a Dan Wesson.

What Para says is true. However, I think Sig wanted to prove bona fides to the Gun world that it can competently build a John Browning.

Everyone is waiting for the Nightmare Scorpian Emperors Legion X-1911 to come out instead of buying the current ones!

First of all I never understood the big deal about the external extractor. More guns have one than not and as for reliability have you ever heard of Glock or H&K? I am more put off by rails.

As for Sig 1911's I have two, a Stainless Super Target and Max Michel. Neither one is a bargain 1911. Both have been 100% reliable with all ammo including handloaded JHPs (hi to Kimber). Friends shooting high priced 1911's have complimented both guns on their accuracy.

Not to engage in a discussion but since I will rarely carry a gun with a safety carrying a 1911 is a rare occurrence for me. However when I do it is a Dan Wesson Bobtail since the Wiley Clapp Colt I purchased was a piece of crap.

SIG literally doesn't even cross my mind when I think 1911. Hell Smith and Wesson crosses my mind before SIG.

When I wanted a 1911 (because I am a gun nerd and every gun nerd needs a 1911... but I digress) my first was a Colt because it had to be a Colt .45....blued.....steel.....5 inch....wood stocks....as God and John Browning intended.

My second 1911 was to be a work of kinetic art and is an Ed Brown.

Neither are for any remotely practical reason beyond the nostalgia, aesthetics, history and frankly as I said kinetic works of art. I go to SIG for GUNS not necessarily nostalgia or art...... although I would love a P210 for those very reasons but.......STOP PUTTING THOSE THOUGHTS IN MY HEAD!!!