I use an RMR on my M&P Compact 2.0 as well as a PMM compensator. Also carry a hand held light.
As for the speed and accuracy of a RD, both have improved greatly for me. From the muzzle to extended range, I'm faster from the draw & more accurate with it than irons. (I do have them on for back up). Battery life it measured in YEARS. My RMR is left on constantly. I change the battery every two years just because. Through thousands of rounds, I've had no issues with the RD or batteries.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:

quote:

And I would note that in the competitive shooting I do I have never seen an iron sighted gun beat the optic guys in any course of fire. And the longer the COF the worse it is, and the lower the light the worse it is.

Hardware and tactics used in competition matches don't translate over to concealed carry very well.
Sure, a Shadow 2 with and SRO is going to be faster than one with irons while shooting a stage but only after the dot is found and then the speed only comes while engaging lots of targets without looking outside of the little window.
In a self defense scenario a dot will take longer to get on target when compared to irons. That extra fraction of a second spent looking for your dot may be the difference between getting a shot off or just getting shot.

I have to disagree. If a shooter has to "spend time looking for your dot" then they have a really crappy presentation. The other thing is if your sights are that far off on the draw that you have to look for the dot, they are that far off on the draw with iron sights. The two are directly linked. And you'll have to spend time fixing the sights either way. So the extra fraction of a second spent looking for the dot isn't going to matter because it isn't the dots fault.

Correct.

Sorry, but you aren't going to acquire irons faster than a dot. If you have trouble with the dot, it is your training, and you're probably shit acquiring irons.

In a self defense situation, you might even make it to full presentation anyway. Any which way, practice and preparation mean more than equipment.

I've been skeptical of RMRs, but the tech is so good and so small now...

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I can't comment on data derived from results of matches where are no USPSA classes.

Normally I am in local 'tactical' matches (outlaw on gun rules iron division versus optics, COF way more complicated than normal USPSA and IDPA) and SC. In the big SC matches I observe like of the top 10 8 are open guns (optics) and 2 irons. Even if the iron guys might actually win. I think for an average joe the red dot guys beat the iron guys. But that's just my observation.

My EDC (P938) has a Viridian Reactor Green laser. However my old range master warned against relying on any battery powered mounted device. Reason being it can fail at the worst time.

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Originally posted by arcwelder76:


Correct.

Sorry, but you aren't going to acquire irons faster than a dot. If you have trouble with the dot, it is your training, and you're probably shit acquiring irons.

In a self defense situation, you might even make it to full presentation anyway. Any which way, practice and preparation mean more than equipment.

I've been skeptical of RMRs, but the tech is so good and so small now...

The speed is not the issue, consistency of results and recovery are. It is a lot easier to recover from a bad grip and get sights back on target with irons than with the dot, and absolutely everybody gets a bad grip once in awhile.

I've not spend as much time behind the dot as others here, about 18 months/30,000 rounds/three classes/a dozen of matches, but I've seen and experienced enough problems to proclaim the dot a winner for a concealed carry application.

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Originally posted by hrcjon:

quote:

I can't comment on data derived from results of matches where are no USPSA classes.

Normally I am in local 'tactical' matches (outlaw on gun rules iron division versus optics, COF way more complicated than normal USPSA and IDPA) and SC. In the big SC matches I observe like of the top 10 8 are open guns (optics) and 2 irons. Even if the iron guys might actually win. I think for an average joe the red dot guys beat the iron guys. But that's just my observation.

I would not extrapolate Open guns results on slide mounted optics guns results. However, my personal, admittedly limited, experience with SC is inline with yours. My own SC times with a slide mounted optic gun are faster than those with otherwise identical iron sighted gun. Well balanced USPSA matches with a good mix of close, medium and long stages have been another story around here.

Right now, just night sights and a handheld light.

I did carry with a Surefire XC1, sold it and got a TLR-1HL, but it was just too much to stuff down my pants for AIWB.

I do plan on trying the new TLR7 when it comes out, and would like to try out an RMR soon.

I carry a G19 with night sights

I also sometimes carry a S&W 60 in 38...it doesn’t have night sights.

I don’t carry a light

At home I have a light by the bed and an AR in the corner(it’s supressed)

I use a mounted light on my 320 compact (w/Trijicon HD XRs), which is my primary carry gun. I also carry a Haley Strategic/Surefire D3FT light to have a hand-held. If I don't have the 320, I still carry the D3FT.

I don't have a dot on any of my pistols, but I would carry light and dot if I did and it concealed well on me.

My HD guns (14.5" BCM and 320 Vtac) all have lights and the rifle has an optic. I would use my suppressed LMT SBR, but it doesn't have a light or dot yet.

I'm a contrarian. Standard iron sights black/black. Small light on key chain...not tactical. Civilian, not LE.

Hell, at close 4-5 yard drills I don't even use a conscious sight picture. Gun about nose level. Tight groups and not any tighter bringing gun up to eye level. Given the technique, no benefit to me using e-dots of any type (at this distance). The late Jim Cirillo taught this method (among others) in a course I took from him in 1995.

The only requirement for my sights is that there be decent light on each side of the front. I use Heinie, Warren Tactical and Defoor. This is for distances where I actually use a conventional sight picture. My corrected vision (glasses) is still 20/20 at age 77, even with glaucoma and cataracts (surgery 3 years ago). Night sights don't work for me and neither do fiber optics. Night sights glare under sunlight (glass vial) and diffuse under indoor fluorescents. The fiber optics are a distraction for me. Neither of these issues with black/black.


One size doesn't fit all. Simple works well for me.

EDC https://imgur.com/gallery/Ay3hrQM

This is it for me. I'll carry a light sometimes but mostly where I'm at has some type of outside lighting.
Wallet, phone and keys go along with me also.
I had a Glock 40 MOS with a red dot on it and liked it a lot but sold it.
All 3 of my carry pistols have night sights on them. 19X is carried now that it's cold.
Less is more for me.

Thank you to everyone for your comments. I have to say I am a bit surprised at the results of the pole; with all of videos of trainers using lights and red dots on their guns, I thought the numbers would have been different. I guess I'm not as outdated as I thought.

quote:

Originally posted by Nick:
Thank you to everyone for your comments. I have to say I am a bit surprised at the results of the pole; with all of videos of trainers using lights and red dots on their guns, I thought the numbers would have been different. I guess I'm not as outdated as I thought.

Not outdated at all.
My reasoning is that with a WML, I have to have a holster that will accommodate. It's a bigger holster.
An RDS probably doesn't need a specialized holster but it has to fit and cover the trigger guard. I don't have any experience with that at all.
My picture shows my 19X in a Blackhawk thumb break holster. It's not a huge holster but bigger compared to any IWB holster I own.
It works for me.

I am shooting a three day class. Yesterday was a day one. By lunch time one of my Deltapoints died in its now classic fashion, contact slippage. By evening time the attachment screws on SRO got loose. They were attached with all the proper technique, cleaning, priming, thread locking, and using a quality torque wrench, Vortex in my case.
Optic or not, I wouldn't have a carry gun without iron sights, nor would I neglect training with irons from time to time.

I didn't vote.
I do have one pistol that has Trijicon Hd sights, Crimson Trace laser grips, and a mounted TLR1 light, but, USUALLY the only time I carry it, is during deer hunting, when looking for a deer, after dark, because we hunt in coyote country, and use it as a house gun. Between the light, and 18 rounds in the gun, it's just too uncomfortable for ME to carry. Same goes for all the pistols I have dot sights on.
I've been shooting dot sights for 15 years, and with my poor eyesight, am more accurate than irons, but, have seen every brand fail. I've personally had 9 dot sights fail.
After having 2 back surgeries, I generally carry tiny pistols. All have lasers. I have had 2 lasers fail, over the years. I believe they failed because they got really wet from perspiration.

On-duty, I carry an RMR. If I worked nights, I'd have a WML also. Off-duty, standard sights and a handheld. Contrary to popular belief, most shootings don't happen in low-light situations. Most shootings happen during hours of low light. Extremely well-lighted parking lots and stores are the most common defensive shooting venues and there is no need for a WML there. If one is actively seeking a threat (like the po-lice), a WML is a must. If not, probably not.

When I first got my CCW, I added a Crimson Trace to my P938. But I found it impractical to EDC, so I removed it. I have a JPoint on my S&W 9mm Pro C.O.R.E. which makes it one of the most accurate guns I shoot, but it's too large for me to carry.

So, initially I would say iron sights (maybe with luminescence), but my eyesight is weakening, so I'm reconsidering. I pick up my new P365 today, and after running some rounds through it, I may add an RMR if it will still fit in my pocket.

Both. My main carry has an XC1 and an RMR. I also carry a hand held light. I’ve found myself in some many different situations where if it went bad, I’d be attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis.

I’ve only dipped my feet lightly in the reddot world, but I love it and wished I would have jumped in a long time ago.

I carry a SIG P220 with Trijicon HD sights and a Surefire combat light and have been doing so for many years. I have weapon mounted lights and red dots and holsters but have not yet felt the need to carry that way on a daily basis, although it wouldn't take up that much more real estate on my gun belt. I am going to a red dot sight instructor course in February which requires a red dot and weapon mounted light for the training course. I am looking forward to seeing how that works out for me.

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Originally posted by enidpd804:
On-duty, I carry an RMR. If I worked nights, I'd have a WML also. Off-duty, standard sights and a handheld. Contrary to popular belief, most shootings don't happen in low-light situations. Most shootings happen during hours of low light. Extremely well-lighted parking lots and stores are the most common defensive shooting venues and there is no need for a WML there. If one is actively seeking a threat (like the po-lice), a WML is a must. If not, probably not.

Yep. In most areas there is adequate ambient light. In addition, for civilians like me, an adverse encounter is likely to be at close range. Armed robberies, car jackings, muggings, kidnappings, beatdowns, etc are not done at 15 yards. It's up close and personal. You're more likely to need weapons retention skills than specialized optics and lights.

None of the above. Usually night sights and no hand held light. Sometimes not even night sights.